Socialism/Communism in the APD

[Axe]

This is coming from someone who isn't even whitelisted anymore. But when I was, there was nothing more obnoxious than cops sitting in Kavala during a bank, getting paid for the work of the cops actually fighting the bank. 

Make the cop payout similar to BHs, but make the radius like 5km. That way the cops who are actually helping with the situation (even the ones driving back) get paid, instead of the retards sitting in Kavala doing nothing. It's just wasn't fair IMO. Not that cop money should be a way of making decent income, but cops who aren't helping shouldn't be benefiting. 

 

Incoming people shitposting and a resounding "not happening" from someone. 

[Haych]

If a Cop is sitting in Kavala during a bank, he's the real MVP. Last thing you want is more reasons to abandon Kavala without any APD support while a Bank/Fed/PB is going on, always good to leave a small squad there to keep things in check.

Overall though, +1, maybe not apply it to cops in Kavala, but apply it to everyone else outside that 'zone'

[JIMBO]

wait, cops actually turn up to banks? What server?

[AegonTargaryenTv]

Everyone needs to respond to bank/fed/prison unless they are engaged with someone. If you are processing someone u need to hurry up and respond to bank. I dont really think that apd has problems with this. If you make radius then cops are going to leave towns and all focus on tracking huge bounty criminal and drug runners thus leaving small folk unprotected. We have a problem of spreading people to whole map and adding thing like radius is going to make it even worse. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by AegonTargaryenTv

[Axe]

Just now, AegonTargaryenTv said:

Everyone needs to respond to bank/fed/prison unless they are engaged with someone. If you are processing someone u need to hurry up and respond to bank. I dont really think that apd has problems with this. If you make radius then cops are going to leave towns and all focus on tracking huge bounty criminal and drug runners thus leaving small folk unprotected. We have a problem of spreading people to whole map and adding thing like radius is going to make it even worse. 

You must be new here.... Or the guidebook changed.

When I was whitelisted (Aug 2014-April 2016) you only had to respond once and then you could go back to what you're doing. 

[Axe]

9 minutes ago, Haych said:

If a Cop is sitting in Kavala during a bank, he's the real MVP. Last thing you want is more reasons to abandon Kavala without any APD support while a Bank/Fed/PB is going on, always good to leave a small squad there to keep things in check.

Overall though, +1, maybe not apply it to cops in Kavala, but apply it to everyone else outside that 'zone'

Let Kavala burn, theres no reason to make it a special place. 

[Cukofuko]

I agree with this point, but at the same time it is your responsibility as a higher up to gather all the cops to respond to such events.

[Axe]

Just now, Cukofuko said:

I agree with this point, but at the same time it is your responsibility as a higher up to gather all the cops to respond to such events.

This is mostly a problem when it's just CSTs and CPLs. 

Because if there is a SGT or LT, everyone wants to suckle. 

But when its CPLs and below. The sky is the limit for stupidity. 

Theres is no reason for it to not be in place, if everyone responds, cool, then it's no different than the current system. And if not everyone responds, at least the people WHO MAKE AN ATTEMPT are rewarded, 

[AegonTargaryenTv]

4 minutes ago, Axe said:

You must be new here.... Or the guidebook changed.

When I was whitelisted (Aug 2014-April 2016) you only had to respond once and then you could go back to what you're doing. 

I can tell you from experience right now. It's is rare that cop will respond once and just go back to what he was doing if SGT+ is on the server. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by AegonTargaryenTv

[Axe]

Just now, AegonTargaryenTv said:

I can tell you from experience right now. It's is rare that cop will respond once and just go back to what he was doing if SGT+ is on the server. 

 

2 minutes ago, Axe said:

This is mostly a problem when it's just CSTs and CPLs. 

 

[JIMBO]

On 07/01/2017 at 8:07 AM, AegonTargaryenTv said:

I can tell you from experience right now. It's is rare that cop will respond once and just go back to what he was doing if SGT+ is on the server. 

You're right, you don't go back to what you were doing, you log off, P1 is a joke lately.

Edited January 8, 2017 by Jimbo

[Legit]

3 hours ago, Axe said:

 

I have tried to make this point time and time again, but receive a reaction from APD staff similar to how rebels act if you suggest a nerf in their payout. The APD Staff members seem to act as if their police force is perfect, without flaws, robocops, or active corruption. 

Majority of the time I'm on cop there is always a group of unmotivated people just trying to get their hours in. Usually resulting in just general goofing around or just aimlessly driving and occasionally processing. I agree that it doesn't really make any sense for them to get the same payout of the cops actively raiding fields, dealing with belligerent players, putting effort into banks, etc.

The problem you describe is more prevalent when a large gang is doing a bank/fed, if somebody is salty from previous experiences they are less likely to return for another corpse run. Overall +1

Edited January 7, 2017 by Legit

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

7 hours ago, Axe said:

This is coming from someone who isn't even whitelisted anymore. But when I was, there was nothing more obnoxious than cops sitting in Kavala during a bank, getting paid for the work of the cops actually fighting the bank. 

Make the cop payout similar to BHs, but make the radius like 5km. That way the cops who are actually helping with the situation (even the ones driving back) get paid, instead of the retards sitting in Kavala doing nothing. It's just wasn't fair IMO. Not that cop money should be a way of making decent income, but cops who aren't helping shouldn't be benefiting. 

 

Incoming people shitposting and a resounding "not happening" from someone. 

This sounds good in theory but the problem is some officers (SGT+) could abuse their added talents (e.g. warrant, medic etc) and form small warrant hunting groups and clear out the bounties for themselves. That's why I would probably be against any type of range restricted bounty sharing for the APD. If people want to have a similar experience to the APD but make good money, make a small BH gang, it is far less restrictive and you make quite a bit of money if you're good at it. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz

[Axe]

7 minutes ago, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

This sounds good in theory but the problem is some officers (SGT+) could abuse their added talents (e.g. warrant, medic etc) and form small warrant hunting groups and clear out the bounties for themselves.

Good. Let them be rewarded for actually doing work instead of waiting for them to spawn in cities. Now if it becomes to a point where an officer is denying lower ranks to tag along, maybe their position on the force as a higher up should be re-evaluated. 

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

Just now, Axe said:

Good. Let them be rewarded for actually doing work instead of waiting for them to spawn in cities. Now if it becomes to a point where an officer is denying lower ranks to tag along, maybe their position on the force as a higher up should be re-evaluated. 

Like I said, I agree with you that a better payment system could be implemented but I'm also acutely aware that some higher ups will inevitably abuse their talent tree advantage and form groups to benefit themselves. Unless we get a reworking of the system, I don't think adding layers of bureaucracy to an already bloated APD guidebook is the solution. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz

[Axe]

15 minutes ago, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

I'm also acutely aware that higher ups will inevitably abuse their talent tree advantage and form groups to benefit themselves.

Then it sounds like these people should be removed. Its not that hard. If higher ups/ groups are denying entry to other officers, simply because they want to benefit more. then it will be very easy to tell who needs to be removed. There is no secret way to abuse it. If higher ups a squading up and then demanding officers go to cities, even though there are still un patrolled cities, then it will be very obvious. 

[they took the name eazy]

just disband the APD

[Reformed epTic]

after dealing with constant banks for 6 hours, i just went to kavala and patrolled in a boat, waited for a bank to go off and went to the bank in a fuckin boat lmfao 

[Boris]

21 minutes ago, the end said:

after dealing with constant banks for 6 hours, i just went to kavala and patrolled in a boat, waited for a bank to go off and went to the bank in a fuckin boat lmfao 

Constant banks for 6 hours? Pray tell which server, sounds like a dream.

[Budbringer]

1 hour ago, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

This sounds good in theory but the problem is some officers (SGT+) could abuse their added talents (e.g. warrant, medic etc) and form small warrant hunting groups and clear out the bounties for themselves. That's why I would probably be against any type of range restricted bounty sharing for the APD. If people want to have a similar experience to the APD but make good money, make a small BH gang, it is far less restrictive and you make quite a bit of money if you're good at it. 

Why should the 3 dudes standing afk manning a checkpoint be rewarded for that a cop risks his stuff hunting down a group of criminals?

[Reformed epTic]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

Constant banks for 6 hours? Pray tell which server, sounds like a dream.

not a dream when you've got certain people abusing certain features to give their gangs an advantage. 

should heard how salty someone was when they failed to suicide vest us to save their ifrit and had them sit there as their friends kept firing shots so we couldnt seize it trying to get it to despawn, they were really mad when we finally seized the damn thing after like 15 minutes

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

Just now, Budbringer said:

Why should the 3 dudes standing afk manning a checkpoint be rewarded for that a cop risks his stuff hunting down a group of criminals?

Any officers that are AFK on purpose to collect passive paychecks should be reported. But forming range based squads isn't a viable solution to the payment problem either IMO. I'd say this would need a dev + APD captain collaboration to come up with a better system. 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz

[James Anderson]

Never have this happen on P4 while I have been online,bank,fed etc..everyone responds 

[Matthew]

This would just make people begin to ignore the distant cities(sofia ect) even more then it is already happening. There are problems making people patrol the entire map and spread out instead of all of the cops sitting in a single channel patrolling a small area. If this was introduced then we would see cops who are normally actively patrolling and roleplaying with civilians begin to huddle around small areas of the maps with other cops in an attempt to still make money while playing.

[AegonTargaryenTv]

13 hours ago, Jimbo said:

You're right, you don't go back to what you're doing, you log off, P1 is a joke lately.

I know u hate me because what happens on Tanoa but do i log off when u do events ? 

[Buckwalter]

Damn dude, I came here expecting some good old fashioned McCarthyism. Guess I'll get the ball rolling, Leady is a commie. 

 

In all seriousness, the collectivist pay structure doesn't make much sense. It engenders laziness and a certain diffusion of responsibility, go to a radius or return to the old way. 

[Axe]

1 minute ago, Buckwalter said:

It engenders laziness and a certain diffusion of responsibility, go to a radius or return to the old way. 

Yes. Finally someone who understands. 

Those worried about groups robocopping to benefit. Solution. Be more stringent on shit RP whilst on cop. The APD could use it anyway. 

Those worried about cities being "unmanned" cops should not be sitting in a city just waiting for something to happen. The majority of players are not in cities. Cops who patrol the cities will get their pay for arrests in their city, while cops out seeking criminals will get their reward. One is easier than the other, it's pretty obvious who deserves what. If you're really that worried, then do to towns what has been done to checkpoints, add a small pay bonus. Nothing that will make you rich, but some incentive to stay in a city instead of grouping up with every cop in the server. 

Those worried about abuse. Record. Report. Its not hard to find a SGT+ who just says "go do this" just to keep people from joining their group. A simple recording would suffice. 

 

[JimmyBeans]

System seems fine as is, but money is basically irrelevant on cop anyway so whatever.  Some people sound upset that cops don't want to attack people sitting on a bank roof and other fortified positions over and over with downing rounds.  It's boring, much prefer the RP and combat in cities.

[DreamC]

+1 include prestige gains in this as well.

[HotWings]

On 1/7/2017 at 2:01 AM, Axe said:

You must be new here.... Or the guidebook changed.

When I was whitelisted (Aug 2014-April 2016) you only had to respond once and then you could go back to what you're doing. 

Its still the same.  

 

Its honestly a good idea. Tired of non contributors mooching off my work.  

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by HotWings

[Axe]

Just now, HotWings said:

Its still the same.  

 

Its honestly a good idea. Tired of non contributors mooching off my work.  

 

On 1/7/2017 at 2:20 PM, Buckwalter said:

Damn dude, I came here expecting some good old fashioned McCarthyism. Guess I'll get the ball rolling, Leady is a commie. 

 

In all seriousness, the collectivist pay structure doesn't make much sense. It engenders laziness and a certain diffusion of responsibility, go to a radius or return to the old way. 

Older officers understand, new ones never will. 

[HotWings]

On 1/7/2017 at 10:08 AM, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

Any officers that are AFK on purpose to collect passive paychecks should be reported. But forming range based squads isn't a viable solution to the payment problem either IMO. I'd say this would need a dev + APD captain collaboration to come up with a better system. 

How is it not viable?  Its perfectly viable and makes a ton of sense.  Back in the day only the cop who made the arrest got paid, and he would share that with the officers that helped him.  You advocate buffing cop payouts, and that is exactly what this does.  It splits the bounty between the 3-4 cops there instead of 10 cops.  You trashed the idea multiple times, but literally give no valid reasoning why, or an alternative.

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

4 minutes ago, HotWings said:

How is it not viable?  Its perfectly viable and makes a ton of sense.  Back in the day only the cop who made the arrest got paid, and he would share that with the officers that helped him.  You advocate buffing cop payouts, and that is exactly what this does.  It splits the bounty between the 3-4 cops there instead of 10 cops.  You trashed the idea multiple times, but literally give no valid reasoning why, or an alternative.

I gave reasons why, maybe you should go back and read my posts. Besides, this isn't my decision one way or another. 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz

[HotWings]

2 minutes ago, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

I gave reasons why, maybe you should go back and read my posts. Besides, this isn't my decision one way or another. 

Valid reasons   Stating that someone is going to use their precinct abilities for their intended purpose is hardly abuse.  

 

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

Just now, HotWings said:

Valid reasons   Stating that someone is going to use their precinct abilities for their intended purpose is hardly abuse.  

 

They are valid, if you disagree that's your prerogative but it doesn't change my opinion. Besides, I already brought this thread up with @Gnashes and others so you can ask him what he thinks.

[Sheriff Rick Grimes]

The current system allows people to do some of the less financially lucrative things that the APD has to offer, like checkpoints, patrolling and interacting out with civilians with the intention to roleplay.  If someone is AFKing for money just report them.  Even adding a range to where you get payouts is going to make cops way less interested in doing things that don't make them money and even now there's plenty of cops who are blatantly money hungry.

[Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz]

So I was thinking about this a bit more and think a compromise would be pretty nice. Something along the lines of a radius based system where those cops get 60-70% of the total payout and the rest is spread to the APD online. This way everyone gets a bit of the payout and those in range doing the actual arrest get a bigger chunk of it. Again, something like this would have to go through APD captains + bamf/paratus/gnashes to really be viable. 

[Buckwalter]

8 hours ago, Sheriff Rick Grimes said:

The current system allows people to do some of the less financially lucrative things that the APD has to offer, like checkpoints, patrolling and interacting out with civilians with the intention to roleplay.  If someone is AFKing for money just report them.  Even adding a range to where you get payouts is going to make cops way less interested in doing things that don't make them money and even now there's plenty of cops who are blatantly money hungry.

Certainly a valid concern, but wouldn't you agree that back in the day (once you had amassed a decent nestegg) money basically ceased to matter in your gameplay? Obviously, it's a flawed comparison due to the added fiscal pressures introduced by money caps etc. But surely, there must be a reasonable middle ground. You mention the very real issue of money hungry cops, and I recognize the positive impact that collective pay has had on this problem. However, I would argue that there has been something of an over-correction and now many people aren't doing much in the way of useful policing. Sadly, none of this behavior is readily quantifiable so I can't speak directly to the effects of these changes, but I personally think that returning to a more meritocratic pay structure would be a good thing. 

8 hours ago, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

So I was thinking about this a bit more and think a compromise would be pretty nice. Something along the lines of a radius based system where those cops get 60-70% of the total payout and the rest is spread to the APD online. This way everyone gets a bit of the payout and those in range doing the actual arrest get a bigger chunk of it. Again, something like this would have to go through APD captains + bamf/paratus/gnashes to really be viable. 

This is an interesting idea. Perhaps even the ideal middle ground. 

Some split that allows for a collective income large enough to pay for the average expenses incurred while playing cop and fair portion of your arrests that either you or those in the immediate area get paid directly. With some fine tuning you could still reward individual effort while ensuring that everyone is able to cover their expenses and play how they want.