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How to counter Vans at the Fed


Is the Federal reserve to difficult or "Cop Sided"  

63 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the Federal reserve to difficult or "Cop Sided"

    • Yes, The fed is too difficult or the reward is not worth the risk
    • No, The fed is fine in difficulty or i'm happy with the rewards
    • Other
  2. 2. What would you like to see be done about the use of Van's.

    • Admins consider jumping on Vans an Exploit and banning anyone who does it.
    • APD Policy, Removing or restricting the use of vans
    • Removal of the van entirely
    • Blocking off some-all swat ladder locations entirely
    • Limiting the usability of Vans (Through props in the editor) to force APD officers to be more exposed when using swat ladders & Vans
    • Shoot out the tires before they get there. ((Its fine as is))
    • Other
    • Increase Pay-out so that the risk matches reward


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Problem: Vans OP at the fed.

The APD got an unintentional but major buff with the release of Vans. Vans can be used as a swat ladder to get up on the H barriers of the fed. This is a bad thing for asylum, historically police officers would push and try to safely set up a swat ladder. Generally APD officers were successful if they were knowledgeable and correctly placed the swat ladder in a position that allowed officers to climb the ladder and not be shot by rebels. In response rebels would then call out the swat ladder position and rotate players to meet incoming APD officers. This was a fun and dynamic element to the fed that has been destroyed.

Before i continue i want to state a fact. For Rebels to have a successful federal reserve robbery they MUST hold the entirety of the perimeter. Once police officers are inside it is extremely hard for rebels to push them back out.  Good luck unlocking domes and getting gold bars into a Hemmtt while officers shoot at you point blank ranges

Before the addition of vans rebels only had to watch 3 gates and one swat ladder location after the swat ladder was placed. With vans rebels now hold 3 gates and 4 swat ladder locations at all times for fear of a van pulling up and breaching the fed perimeter. Statistically speaking, the federal reserve for rebels got 42% harder with the addition of vans and rebels have not received anything to compensate for this.

How do we fix it? 

Well their are multiple ways to approach this, so i'm going to first cover the idea's already suggested.

1. APD Policy to limit the use of Vans.

It was locked and @Clint Beastwood said an official ruling would be posted soon ((That was OCT. 4))

Clearly this has been discussed and the captains have decided not to implement a policy.

2. Due to the increased risk, increase the reward

No answer from anyone on this one.

My Option.

Keep the vans in play however Nerf the scope of usability. An extreme example would be blocking off a few of the current swat ladder locations entirely. A more balanced option would be making it so the swat ladder/van would be visible at all times from a location within the federal reserve while the officer attempts to climb it.

107410_20171216000847_1.png

This may look a bit extreme but illustrates what could be done by the developers. While at first glance this does seem a bit over the top but i want to remind you that APD officers *could* coordinate cover fire on a deer-stand to facilitate a push or simply buy 16 flash bangs and blow the deer-stand up. 

This option wouldn't remove the use of Vans and Swat ladders but would limit the scope of their usability hopefully resulting in a more balanced fed fight. 

Other option

Return some of the destroyed deer-stands. ((However some deer-stands would allow players to actually shoot into air HQ and kill officers as they spawn.

@bamf @Gnashes @Paratus

Let me know what you think.

 

 

Edited by Patato
Silver-Spy, Xavorey, Cliff. and 2 others like this
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Vans are fine, just shoot the tires out before the APD can park them. Your poll doesn’t have any good options for the second portion and forces votes to be in favor of what you want.

If you can’t complete a fed reserve robbery it’s because you suck, not because the APD is difficult to deal with. Go watch nv do a fed sometime, they rarely fail.

Edited by Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz
Rodrigo likes this
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Just now, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

Vans are fine, just shoot the tires out before the APD can park them. Your poll doesn’t have any good options for the second portion and forces votes to be in favor of what you want.

Added, however do realize their are routes you can take that will extremely limit rebels ability to shoot at the van as it approaches the fed. Once your against the wall in certain places you will not be able to see an officer even climb up onto the swat ladder/van

Edited by Patato
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Just now, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

Vans are fine, just shoot the tires out before the APD can park them. Your poll doesn’t have any good options for the second portion and forces votes to be in favor of what you want.

If you can’t complete a fed reserve robbery it’s because you suck, not because the APD is difficult to deal with. Go watch nv do a fed sometime, they rarely fail.

One of those post is from a member of envy..... and we do agree the vans are retarded

PeytonCx and Kev 23 like this
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Just now, Sugarfoot said:

One of those post is from a member of envy..... and we do agree the vans are retarded

The thing that bothers me the most is that it went from what felt like a very tactical and thoughtful discussion about the allocation of resources (One swat ladder). to a spam rush of endless vans. I remember sitting in the Strider actually planning out the push and where exactly to put the swat ladder. It was extremely satisfying to get a good ladder placement and even more devastating to lose the swat ladder before it got placed. 

However now your able to spam pull vans and throw enough of them at the fed to eventually flood the fed with officers. Its not often i find myself on the rebel side of things but in your opinion is it a similar feeling? 

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Just now, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

Vans are fine, just shoot the tires out before the APD can park them. Your poll doesn’t have any good options for the second portion and forces votes to be in favor of what you want.

If you can’t complete a fed reserve robbery it’s because you suck, not because the APD is difficult to deal with. Go watch nv do a fed sometime, they rarely fail.

It might be doable but under what Circumstances? You gotta remember, there is a group cap in place, with a max of 14. Sometimes there could be 25+ cops on against 14 which is definitely doable without the vans but with them no matter how good you are it's damn near impossible. 

If a group of some of the best Arma players say something is too difficult it probably is. A lot of these good gangs have been playing together for in excess of a year sometimes 2, keep that in mind.

Flip the circumstances, say there is 14 rebels and 8 cops, yeah no shit the rebels will win but the cops don't have a group cap, cheap(or free) load outs, cheaper armor, etc the list goes on. The fed was balanced before, if it is to remain this way the payout has to be 2.5x or 3x what it is now.

Edited by Steve
Patato likes this
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Just now, Patato said:

The thing that bothers me the most is that it went from what felt like a very tactical and thoughtful discussion about the allocation of resources (One swat ladder). to a spam rush of endless vans. I remember sitting in the Strider actually planning out the push and where exactly to put the swat ladder. It was extremely satisfying to get a good ladder placement and even more devastating to lose the swat ladder before it got placed. 

However now your able to spam pull vans and throw enough of them at the fed to eventually flood the fed with officers. Its not often i find myself on the rebel side of things but in your opinion is it a similar feeling? 

Put it this way, without giving you a long ass story about how gang life died but envy still wanted to play -

 

- We still logged on faithfully to do banks, feds, and roam the map to play with each other. You don't see that happening anymore because:

+ Bank is unbalanced for cops and they rarely were showing up

+ Fed was an awesome even playing field but turned into a shit show that even when done perfectly you can't make it out with all your people let alone a hemmit. This isn't with me even going into the fucked up gates or the spike strip bull shit.

 

 

Just because Envy does something successful doesn't mean that its binary in the sence of either your bad or not. Its retarded and its not fun for us either - we just don't have anything else to do on the server because it is dying.

Patato, Donald and Cliff. like this
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Just now, Tyler said:

Basically the unknown rule is don't abuse it and no issues. The Captains won't make any new rules if you don't abuse it soo... don't ruin it for everyone else.

Its being abused already. ((Granted i'm a small part of the issue)) but i think expecting players to self police reflects poorly on the game itself. Id much rather see an environment where people can play to the best of their ability within the confines of rules placed on everyone.

This is something the devs/admins have reiterated in the past IE. Your allowed to third person thru a wall but you can't stick your gun thru and shoot. In this scenario it is very clear cut what is allowed and what is not allowed. 

Having a "Honor System" is fundamentally flawed because everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is "Fair" and what isn't. Personally i feel the federal reserve is an important part of the Asylum experience, its a end game/high level objective with huge risk and reward. And not to oust @Clint Beastwood or any of the other captains, but its their job to ensure/facilitate fair & fun game-play between civs and cops. To leave that decision in the hands of the average officer ((myself included)) is not something i think is a good idea. 

Do i think the captains should turn around and say "No more vans". No not at all, for a number of reasons the first being rebels can turn around and use the vans on our HQ's anytime they want with great effectiveness. Its why i believe this is a game play issue and not an "APD"  issue and should be handled by Dev's and potentially admins.

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Just now, Hanzo/Dirty Scrubz said:

Vans are fine, just shoot the tires out before the APD can park them. Your poll doesn’t have any good options for the second portion and forces votes to be in favor of what you want.

If you can’t complete a fed reserve robbery it’s because you suck, not because the APD is difficult to deal with. Go watch nv do a fed sometime, they rarely fail.

Ignorant career cops would rather fight one fed a month than give the rebels a fighting chance at getting away. And you people wonder why the servers dying smh.... 

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Just now, tryhardsqueaker said:

Ignorant career cops would rather fight one fed a month than give the rebels a fighting chance at getting away. And you people wonder why the servers dying smh.... 

feds are aids to deal with because you've got 15 Chris Kyles everywhere. 

doing feds against Synergy was aids because u had @Bikstoksitting somewhere out in Kavala fucking sniping people

climbing ladder, get shot in back of head from africa 

generally if we didn't see a hemmtt or another vehicle inside the fed or around the fed, we didn't even bother responding because we knew it was just someone camping the fed to fight

Edited by 7th Ward Charizard
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Just now, 7th Ward Charizard said:

doing feds against Synergy was aids because u had @Bikstoksitting somewhere out in Kavala fucking sniping people

generally if we didn't see a hemmtt or another vehicle inside the fed or around the fed, we didn't even bother responding because we knew it was just someone camping the fed to fight

There was numerous times when cops didn't show up and we got out with hemtts FULL of bars back in Synergy, same in Elysium, same with the bank.

Sometimes we'd go in for just a small fed with a box truck and end up running to chop to get a second one because nobody bothered to come and stop us.

Edited by Yung Kali-G
Rodrigo likes this
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Just now, Yung Kali-G said:

There was numerous times when cops didn't show up and we got out with hemtts FULL of bars back in Synergy, same in Elysium, same with the bank.

Sometimes we'd go in for just a small fed with a box truck and end up running to chop to get a second one because nobody bothered to come and stop us.

we got tired of u cunts and ur 50 nades. 

bring 1 mag, 50 nades, and just chuck em over walls hahahah

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1 hour ago, Patato said:

Added, however do realize their are routes you can take that will extremely limit rebels ability to shoot at the van as it approaches the fed. Once your against the wall in certain places you will not be able to see an officer even climb up onto the swat ladder/van

Honestly, an easy fix for the fed would be allowing use of all the deer stands. Having use of all of them would make it more fair

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Just now, Azeh said:

This was brought up to Bamf about a month ago and he said he could place spike strips somewhere to prevent people from using the vans as ladders. 

I don't 100% recall, but @Sean That Irish Guy might

I told him to get rid of them because the fed is cancer with them and its the main reason people dont do the fed right now but again it was a month ago so who knows

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Just now, Azeh said:

I meant some kind of barricade to prevent people from walking on H-Barriers that aren't below deerstands (not sure where I got spike strips from). Like I said, I don't recall what Bamf said, but I believe he said he could just do what Patato suggested in the picture. The downside is rebels sometimes use these to walk outside the fed without having to go back in through a gate. 

Yeah true but if they just stop the vans from going to the fed, make it a new policy, then there would only be swat ladders we've to worry about and they can be dealt with instead of multiple vans being used.

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5 hours ago, Tyler said:

Basically the unknown rule is don't abuse it and no issues. The Captains won't make any new rules if you don't abuse it soo... don't ruin it for everyone else.

So.... What i'm Getting is that we all should go abuse it and make videos of it to get the lazy captains to make a rule? @everyone ok im down for it...

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5 hours ago, Patato said:

Its being abused already. ((Granted i'm a small part of the issue)) but i think expecting players to self police reflects poorly on the game itself. Id much rather see an environment where people can play to the best of their ability within the confines of rules placed on everyone.

This is something the devs/admins have reiterated in the past IE. Your allowed to third person thru a wall but you can't stick your gun thru and shoot. In this scenario it is very clear cut what is allowed and what is not allowed. 

Having a "Honor System" is fundamentally flawed because everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is "Fair" and what isn't. Personally i feel the federal reserve is an important part of the Asylum experience, its a end game/high level objective with huge risk and reward. And not to oust @Clint Beastwood or any of the other captains, but its their job to ensure/facilitate fair & fun game-play between civs and cops. To leave that decision in the hands of the average officer ((myself included)) is not something i think is a good idea. 

Do i think the captains should turn around and say "No more vans". No not at all, for a number of reasons the first being rebels can turn around and use the vans on our HQ's anytime they want with great effectiveness. Its why i believe this is a game play issue and not an "APD"  issue and should be handled by Dev's and potentially admins.

There was a reason why the guidebook was re-written... probably before your time but to AVOID all of these rules... If you can't be mature enough to fight fairly and accept a loss here and there instead of abusing everything in your arsenal to win then you shouldn't be on the APD. That's the view the Captains had when making the new guidebook they want common sense to prevail. It also gives more power to the LTs when they give disciplinary action they don't have to specify every little rule they can basically give points on things that aren't necessarily listed in the GB but still implied. To sum it all up basically they probably don't want to put it in the guidebook but word will be passed down that if you abuse it then points will be given out and then it will be up to the SGTs and LTs to do their jobs for once and regulate the lower ranking people. This comes from my past experience for a year of being a SGT... always how it goes.

 

EDIT: @bigjohn561 try it and see how quickly you get points for abusing the vans :). Think the Captains like @DarkKnight here are lazy? Lol he probably plays the game more than you do, and still does all of his Captain work.

Edited by Tyler
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Not a big problem, just get people who know what they’re doing. The fed needs to be done by a lot of people and people don’t understand that and complain it’s cop sided. If you have enough players who know what they’re doing it’s easy and 100% rebel sided. That being said, I think the pay of the fed should be increased so that a fed with the amount of people needed is actually profitable. 

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Just now, Scott said:

Not a big problem, just get people who know what they’re doing. The fed needs to be done by a lot of people and people don’t understand that and complain it’s cop sided. If you have enough players who know what they’re doing it’s easy and 100% rebel sided. That being said, I think the pay of the fed should be increased so that a fed with the amount of people needed is actually profitable. 

I can get on board with that, the fed even with the vans isn't difficult as you said it just requires a lot of people who know what they are doing.

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As someone who is a career cop, I can certainly say that money Feds have almost disappeared entirely. I think the last one that I saw was back in like October, and I play frequently enough during peak hours for Feds to happen and me see them. I think that the use of Vans to jump on the H-Barriers is an exploit that we just happen to be allowed to do. Sure, you could realistically climb on top of a van, but it just seems so needless and makes the Fed cop sided. Before we were allowed to use vans to jump on the walls, I would see Feds happen once or twice a day when I got on. Not always HEMMT Feds mind you, but money Feds none the less.

Point being, it doesn't seem fair at all to Rebels to have to watch even more openings in an already large Fed. It's not like the cops have to travel from Kavala to get back to the Fed, we're a stones throw away from the Fed, so when we die we're already back in action a minute later. This means that a group of 10 rebels fending off even 10 cops will suffer attrition via a lethal to the face every so often, and every man on the rebel side is important, unlike cops who can infinite respawn and jump over the walls. If they have to watch not just gates, but all the SWAT ladder locations, then the cops can just keep zerging in lethaling or downing them until they gain the advantage, and unlike before, they can't just force us into a bottleneck and keep us contained. Instead, they have to watch their backs and spread themselves thin, and hope to god that the APD forgot their fingers that day.

Azeh likes this
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Just now, Sean That Irish Guy said:

A Sgt suggesting something for civ/rebel isnt the way to go about this because it doesnt effect you at all. Remove the ability to use vans at the fed period and problems solved.

Rank doesn't have much to do with it. If i as a career cop can tell just by talking to people and seeing with my own eyes that rebels are risking way to much for little reward something is not right. Feds don't happen anymore and i miss them, i enjoyed federal reserve fights and if bringing them back means increasing the payout or removing/restricting the vans i'm all for it. Even if it means i don't win as many fights.

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Federal reserve...

 

This should be considered an "end game" action.  It should be considered one of the hardest stunts to pull off as a rebel.  I have done several federal reserves since the vans have been added. 

Have they hindered a successful fed?  By all means, yes.  

Are they over powered?  No, it does add an additional difficulty, but I do not see this as a game breaking mechanic.

 

From a long time rebel perspective, I sat in feds all comfy next to my barrier ready to quick peek and rip heads off, I considered it "Whack-a-mole".  I would have invited such a change from the usual.  Hell there were times ZERO cops even showed up to the fed because they realized their chances were next to none.  Times have changed.  With server population only being large on 2 or sometimes 3 of the servers, majority of the cops are going to migrate where more cops are to boost the numbers - it becomes increasingly more difficult to finish a fed with the number of cops on.  If anything increase the payout.  Don't take away a realistic tactical option.

 

Quit being soft, enjoy the fight you get.  Even if it doesnt go your way.

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Just now, Clint Beastwood said:

Federal reserve...

 

This should be considered an "end game" action.  It should be considered one of the hardest stunts to pull off as a rebel.  I have done several federal reserves since the vans have been added. 

Have they hindered a successful fed?  By all means, yes.  

Are they over powered?  No, it does add an additional difficulty, but I do not see this as a game breaking mechanic.

 

From a long time rebel perspective, I sat in feds all comfy next to my barrier ready to quick peek and rip heads off, I considered it "Whack-a-mole".  I would have invited such a change from the usual.  Hell there were times ZERO cops even showed up to the fed because they realized their chances were next to none.  Times have changed.  With server population only being large on 2 or sometimes 3 of the servers, majority of the cops are going to migrate where more cops are to boost the numbers - it becomes increasingly more difficult to finish a fed with the number of cops on.  If anything increase the payout.  Don't take away a realistic tactical option.

 

Quit being soft, enjoy the fight you get.  Even if it doesnt go your way.

If every fed is a 30/70 chance of pulling it off I'd rather just quick peek cops from kavala castle. Just as fun with less risk, the payout from fed is abysmal no one does it for the money.

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Just now, tryhardsqueaker said:

If every fed is a 30/70 chance of pulling it off I'd rather just quick peek cops from kavala castle. Just as fun with less risk, the payout from fed is abysmal no one does it for the money.

I gotta agree doing feds for money is not a viable option. You should be able to profit a great deal from doing a fed. If it is meant to be the end game, you definitely don't make enough now.

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