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Cartel Poll  

110 members have voted

  1. 1. Do we want cartel raids?



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21 minutes ago, tryhardsqueaker said:

Server is dying, there will never be fighting like there used to be. The only way to get some good fights are reapereds events. No one wants to fight cops at a cartel. 

If you could get more than 6 people we are always down to fight. You guys could be fighting us everyday, dont act like theres no one to fight cause we never turn down a fight

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11 hours ago, tryhardsqueaker said:

If we wanted to fight cops we would do a bank. No one wants to go to jail for fighting cartels. Getting people to join gangs that actively fight cartels will solve the problem, not bringing the cops. 

 

 

One reason I enjoy the cartel raids is that the APD gets to fight when they want to fight and the rebels have to deal with it. For years now the APD has had to stop what they are doing and show up to the bank, fed, or prison whenever the rebels want to fight. That can get boring for the APD after a while. Nothing is more fun than to push the bank with 7 rebels on the roof over and over. The Cartel fight is a lot more dynamic and fun for both sides. The APD uses lethals 95% of the time so hardly anyone is going to jail. Most of the time the APD gets wiped so anyone restrained can be saved by their gang mates. I have heard the same people say they love it and they hate it. The only time they want it removed is when they lose to the cops. When they win they taunt us to get us to go back to continue the slaughter. I'm all for gang life coming back but sometimes I think people forget that this is a cops vs robbers RP server. There shouldn't be a place on the map where cops can't ever go. I pay my respects to you @tryhardsqueaker because you are the only one who has contacted the Captians with your concerns and gave us constructive ways to improve it. After that we talked about it and made a couple of changes. Those changes might not have been exactly what you asked for but change still happened. The recent policy update was made to help space out the raids and give a one life rule for a bigger group of cops. If raids continue to happen to often then we will make more changes. We just need time to see if the recent changes are enough. I encourage anyone with good ideas on the subject to message the Captains on the forums or message me on teamspeak.
 

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Here's a use case of why I stopped fighting cartels recently. When I fight cartels, I typically roll around with 1-3 other people. With this said, we usually only fight cartels when the opposing party has around that number as well.

During the time of day that we play, there's always a strong APD presence. We would fight the cartels because we knew we stood no chance against any fight with the APD. Without fail, we would get raided pretty much every cartel fight - and the raids are huge (10+). There's no contest. The cartel fight is over within 2 minutes and everyone is in restraints. 

From my perspective, the current policy is laughable. You all made a policy focused on one use case - large groups. Raids are allowed every 20 minutes? Um.. :o - this allows the APD to come to every cartel fight considering 20 minute capture timers. NLR for 8 or more officers? NLR doesn't matter if the attacking APD force is 2-4x the amount of people fighting the cartel. Require SGT+? Senior APD staff have made it clear that they are not able to show enough restraint in ordering raids under current guidelines.

Bringing the APD into cartel fights will not revive gang life. It is doing the opposite actually, especially with exceedingly large and frequent raids. If we look at this strategically from a high-level perspective, this sort of behavior is a major discouragement (possibly affecting retention %) for newer players starting to dabble with gang life - the group most likely to fight in smaller groups. I can see this teetering away from an APD issue into an overall server-health issue that may require intervention. 

I understand that the APD is trying to have fun here, and perhaps that is okay if the cartel fights start getting huge. However, there's a better balance that needs to be achieved here to not destroy the experience of smaller groups. If this is not achieved, we are creating a dynamic where cartel fights just won't happen period. This is especially important due to the fragile state of gang life.

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IMO: if you want to fight a cartel make a gang.  Don't use the APD as a gang, that is not their purpose.  Yes they are essentially the biggest gang on the server, but don't abuse it or be dicks.  The APD's primary responsibility is to promote role play by using their PRIMARY WEAPON. I feel like at this point the cops are just saying its there primary weapon, but don't actually mean it.  

I have found through my own interactions with cops that they use their voice less and less and use their sirens as primary weapons.  I.E. Siren - Shoot - don't talk to me until we get to HQ (5 minute conversation with myself in a car traveling to HQ) - Have a one sided conversation with themselves and talk over me because they are adding charges and searching me with no real interest in having a conversation or responding to me but to go through the motions.  I would understand if people are HVTs and hey there is a policy for that, but experiencing this type of interaction more and more makes me lose faith, which has been dwindling ever since I started playing cop.  I do my best to RP at every corner, but when it comes to cops, those that actually converse with me are few and far between.  They are more interested in going through the motions, and to hurry up so they can move on.   

Cops go almost anywhere...yes there are restrictions, but that is the balance.  If you want to go some where like rebel, black market, or a cartel...pursue people into those places.  I agree with @LaGrange, cops dominate when they show up at a cartel or rebel and it is DEMORALIZING. I do not typically play with big gangs, and when I do play with a group its normally very small. So when my group and I are trying to gear up at rebel for a fight and the cops show up, the fun is one sided.  Do the cops struggle when they gear up? No, why? because they spawn with their gear.  

Is fighting a cartel fun for the cops? Sure its fun for the cops and you can justify it by saying "hey we lethaled them, they should thank us because they didn't go to jail".  Cool, but isn't the point of the APD to promote role playing?  Justify going to cartels and saying its fun for both sides is like a doctor saying hey we fixed your broken leg by chopping it off.

 

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On 6/9/2018 at 11:32 PM, LaGrange said:

Here's a use case of why I stopped fighting cartels recently. When I fight cartels, I typically roll around with 1-3 other people. With this said, we usually only fight cartels when the opposing party has around that number as well.

During the time of day that we play, there's always a strong APD presence. We would fight the cartels because we knew we stood no chance against any fight with the APD. Without fail, we would get raided pretty much every cartel fight - and the raids are huge (10+). There's no contest. The cartel fight is over within 2 minutes and everyone is in restraints. 

From my perspective, the current policy is laughable. You all made a policy focused on one use case - large groups. Raids are allowed every 20 minutes? Um.. :o - this allows the APD to come to every cartel fight considering 20 minute capture timers. NLR for 8 or more officers? NLR doesn't matter if the attacking APD force is 2-4x the amount of people fighting the cartel. Require SGT+? Senior APD staff have made it clear that they are not able to show enough restraint in ordering raids under current guidelines.

Bringing the APD into cartel fights will not revive gang life. It is doing the opposite actually, especially with exceedingly large and frequent raids. If we look at this strategically from a high-level perspective, this sort of behavior is a major discouragement (possibly affecting retention %) for newer players starting to dabble with gang life - the group most likely to fight in smaller groups. I can see this teetering away from an APD issue into an overall server-health issue that may require intervention. 

I understand that the APD is trying to have fun here, and perhaps that is okay if the cartel fights start getting huge. However, there's a better balance that needs to be achieved here to not destroy the experience of smaller groups. If this is not achieved, we are creating a dynamic where cartel fights just won't happen period. This is especially important due to the fragile state of gang life.

Been times where I have just logged off because I can’t even go cap a cartel without the cops showing up. It’s way too hard to log on 10+ for the chance that cops will show up. I could probably get 3-4 on if there was actual gangs on to fight but no one wants to fight cops. 

 

I agree that the 20 minute timer is laughable as well. It takes most gangs over 20 minutes to push again so if you are trying to fight another gang multiple times the cops just continue to come back and ruin the fight. 

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All points are good points.

 

After reading some suggestions, they are being seriously considered.

 

As stated here earlier, this was to introduce cartels to cops whom normally would not venture to see a cartel.  Also stir up things a bit and remove a "sanctuary" of a contested cartel.

Cartel raids have been a rather successful and eventful policy that is kind of exciting.  It gives the APD a chance to be an aggressive force, rather than just reacting to the usual bank/federal reserve/prison break.  

 

Changes to come.  As always, thank you for your feedback.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Clint Beastwood said:

All points are good points.

 

After reading some suggestions, they are being seriously considered.

 

As stated here earlier, this was to introduce cartels to cops whom normally would not venture to see a cartel.  Also stir up things a bit and remove a "sanctuary" of a contested cartel.

Cartel raids have been a rather successful and eventful policy that is kind of exciting.  It gives the APD a chance to be an aggressive force, rather than just reacting to the usual bank/federal reserve/prison break.  

 

Changes to come.  As always, thank you for your feedback.

 

 

I really dont think removing raids will resolve any issue tbh

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50 minutes ago, Clint Beastwood said:

The APD is ran by the community?

:thinking:

A change like that effects rebels a great deal. That's why we have this poll system to gauge what people think. In my opinion it should have been ran by the community. We were also told that it was on a "trial period" of sorts, and that if people didn't it that it would be removed.

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2 minutes ago, Steve said:

A change like that effects rebels a great deal. That's why we have this poll system to gauge what people think. In my opinion it should have been ran by the community. We were also told that it was on a "trial period" of sorts, and that if people didn't it that it would be removed.

Trial period?  No where it said that.

5 Months in effect. Some background on it.

Probably had to reprimand 4 people in total for breaking a rule in it. 

Maybe 2 IA's total.

Had about 3 private messages about it, 2 of which helped shape the Policy a bit better.

 

It's going to be changed, but, not going away.

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5 minutes ago, Clint Beastwood said:

Trial period?  No where it said that.

5 Months in effect. Some background on it.

Probably had to reprimand 4 people in total for breaking a rule in it. 

Maybe 2 IA's total.

Had about 3 private messages about it, 2 of which helped shape the Policy a bit better.

 

It's going to be changed, but, not going away.

Well, in all fairness, a reason for the small amount of reports could be that the policy allows for so much currently :P 

Can't report someone if they are following the guidelines - no matter how flawed the guideline is. 

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20 minutes ago, Marzoh said:

atleast cops cant go to cartels in a ghosthawk and gun people down with the miniguns like olympus can

They cant to that on there ether unless they are in pursuit or whatever its called... 20 second later when they are in warzone they get fucked by titans soo yeah

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1 hour ago, Clint Beastwood said:

 

As stated here earlier, this was to introduce cartels to cops whom normally would not venture to see a cartel.  Also stir up things a bit and remove a "sanctuary" of a contested cartel.

Cartel raids have been a rather successful and eventful policy that is kind of exciting.  It gives the APD a chance to be an aggressive force, rather than just reacting to the usual bank/federal reserve/prison break.  

 

If a cop wants to go to a cartel get a 30k loadout and go.

Your an Admin setup an Event be creative clint im sure you can create an event where the apd gets to bunker down while rebels try and attack.

Space likes this
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20 minutes ago, Clint Beastwood said:

Trial period?  No where it said that.

5 Months in effect. Some background on it.

Probably had to reprimand 4 people in total for breaking a rule in it. 

Maybe 2 IA's total.

Had about 3 private messages about it, 2 of which helped shape the Policy a bit better.

 

It's going to be changed, but, not going away.

I'll rephrase, when did the community ask for it? Time and time again we ask for other things but no one ever asked for this and no one supported the idea like they did in large numbers with the old prison or making cartels auto deposit into gang bank again. For years the cops were not meant to go to cartels because cartels were for gangs, it was the only thing the gangs had to themselves. Sure maybe a few cops became interested in cartels and tried it out on civ from since this has been implemented, but it's much more destructive then it is helpful. When the cops raid a cartel they pinch the attacking gang and often times snag the people setup to hard aim. If you feel it must continue I believe that they should only be allowed to be within 1k of cap for 5-7 minutes which would force them to push cap or leave. Otherwise they dance around till they find a guy flanking in east forest or they wait until the fight is over and they kill whatever gang won while they are trying to get revives.

You gotta remember, with group cap if the cops get 1 of your gang members it can be a big disadvantage to keep fighting. I like fighting cops as much as many other people do but I don't like cops seeing cartel fights going on in the kill feed and then they show up. If people wanna fight cartels they can do it on civ like people have for years.

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36 minutes ago, Noliver. said:

They cant to that on there ether unless they are in pursuit or whatever its called... 20 second later when they are in warzone they get fucked by titans soo yeah

yeah i know olympus has titans but when i use to play that server for about a week, we were at arms trying to fight and then a ghosthawk came in killing everyone and then just left. then it came back again. i know you have titans over there but not every cartel fight someone is going to be buying a titan,

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