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Let's be real, there are a lot of facets leading to lower server numbers, but I just want to focus on Dom and its relation to the main server here. The nerfs on Dom money are warranted, I understand, but with the large amount of time you need to spend on dom and the skill required, the top players deserve to make a lot of money. That being said, they should have to earn it. 

 

Currently as it stands, when dom is live, the main server typically dies. In addition, there are plenty of players who don't even need to play on the main server if they just focus on dom, which leads to even lower population on the main server. I think the gamemodes should be connected, in a sense cross promotion. To be specific:

 

Dom payouts should be increased, HOWEVER, the only way to obtain these increased payouts are to do certain things on the main server throughout the week. I.e. lets say the first place  TEAM gets 1 mil if they don't play on the main server. However, if they hold cartels for 10+ hours, or get a certain amount of "victories" on fed events (hard to quantify this) or just making enough money on the server, etc, THEN they can get the huge payouts on dom. This way, being a dom only player isn't worth it and it promotes playing on the main server. 

This hopefully also promoted gang life to fight cartels again, although it may be too late for this. 

 

In addition, dom should just happen less, this way the events have some more meaning and there is more time to grind on the main server between dom dates. Lets say 1 during the weekend and 1 during the week, so people like @Dilloncould touch grass for once. 

 

 

What're everyone's takes on this though. 

 

EDIT: In terms of the main server dying during dom, this was more of an issue a couple months ago when it was more active.

Edited by Richard
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By lowering the pot like u guys just did makes it so the only 2 relevant gangs that still play, (NSF AND envy) not want to play anymore because we play against roaches and scat gangs. Its a great way to kill the server if you want to break the profit margin for gangs. I know this affects server 1 but its lame as fuck cops dont fight or do anything cartels are dead. Bury server 1 and do whats best for dom!

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18 hours ago, Richard said:

Dom payouts should be increased, HOWEVER, the only way to obtain these increased payouts are to do certain things on the main server throughout the week. I.e. lets say the first place  TEAM gets 1 mil if they don't play on the main server. However, if they hold cartels for 10+ hours, or get a certain amount of "victories" on fed events (hard to quantify this) or just making enough money on the server, etc, THEN they can get the huge payouts on dom. This way, being a dom only player isn't worth it and it promotes playing on the main server. 

i fuck with it. could make something like 'gang prestige' or some shit, like a system where the longer your gang holds cartels or the more wins your gang gets at fed events all adds towards the 'gangs overall prestige.' Then gangs with higher gang prestige made on server one would be eligible for higher cuts or other benefits on S2. gang prestige could also lead to exclusive benefits for gangs on S1, such as a longer cooldown period after capping a cartel or quicker cap times at turfs for example - maybe not both at the same time but instead gang leaders could choose to spend the gangs prestige on whatever perk they want active at a time. maybe put a time limit on each perk while active though, so it doesn't get abused by top gangs. 

Edited by SirchiefalotOBE
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Dom is a struggle.
Pre-nerf
Almost every player was profitable. 
The issue with Dom is no money comes out and we only put money in. Every dime you spend goes into a pot which will eventually see another player get that money. In the eyes of an overall economy this means the fight is "Free" because /someone/ will get the money. Where as on life once you purchase an MK that money is gone and can't come back. The MK will eventually be lost/seized

Best real world example is that Asylum is a poker room hosting a poker table. Players come in with their own money to gamble against each other. Obviously we want a successful Poker room so we offer incentives for people to join the poker room (Again this is pre nerf scenario) 10mil starting pot + prizes. Issue is a real poker room then takes a rake of every hand, sells drinks and services which means they can recoup some of the initial investment. 

Poker room also doesn't have a pit boss sit and stuff $20 into your pocket every 30 seconds (SRT/BloodMoney/Quests).
(They also don't have Admins with infinite money buying all the armor for their group putting a ton of money into the pot at a cost to the server while advantaging their group)

I have no problem putting money in to see people play Domination, It brings in potential people who would not otherwise be exposed to Asylum. The issue is how much, sure some players may take their Dom winnings and never join life - yes some people treat blood money as a leaderboard and have never spent a dollar. However some amount of money will come into the life server that the economy has to deal with. Ive heard the ludicrous argument that bank account doesn't matter and that I shouldn't care if someone has 1mil or 10mil because "Its the same thing" if that were true why would we bother at all? Everything would just be free. You also wouldn't have nearly as many complaints about admins doing dumb shit with infinite money. The negative effects of having too much money were already taking shape when i came back from my break.

This is all before typical Asylum shenanigan's such as buying a ton of armor knowing you will get the lions share of the pot (as again everything you buy goes into the pot) then chopping/selling the frits you got most of the money back on for an additional profit. 

Ive flip flopped back and forth a few times now on my own. The truth is Domination is still generating far more money than the life server, I don't know the solution to it without adversly affecting either one server or the other.

I don't think this is a scenario where its Tanoa 2.0 and the server is being entirely propped up by money. (In which case i would just laugh as it died)
But as we have seen money is obviously an issue when taken away.

I personally don't feel Dom would survive on its own if we entirely separated out Dom cash from Asylum cash. (Meaning you would convert say 100k Asylum coin into 1mil dom cash to play with then either could only return it to life cash at a reduced percentage or not at all) 

I also have reservations about further linking them. Throw away Idea's ive had.
1.) Similar to infamy, 10% of any money you earn from illegal activities on life is converted to blood money. The blood money then could be used on Domination additionally it could be used to buy upgrades/skins/perks on the life server. One example would be a very heavy defib that is consumed on use but is stupidly fast at reviving. or other infamy like perks (How we stop this from being a modifier mess again im not sure)
2.) Having some sort of system where you would basically have to buy or craft vehicles on life for use on dom. Any vehicles purchased on Dom would not go towards the pot and the funds be eaten by the server. (This would act as our rake) But ill admit forgetting to log onto life 5mins before dom and spamming buy doesn't really seem to help us all that much and is just throwing money at a governor. 


Its stuck in a weird spot. Is it a hardcore PvP server where you risk it all for a big reward. (In which case someone has to lose big for another to win big)
Or is it a place to have a good time, possibly make a few bucks. (In which case no one wins big but everyone breaks even)
I could type more but this is the base of the issue.

@Richard

Personal note i think dom happens to frequently and was bound to feel less "Special"
If you only ran it 1-2 times a week & on holidays its easier too feel better about making that starting pot higher

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31 minutes ago, Patato said:

1.) Similar to infamy, 10% of any money you earn from illegal activities on life is converted to blood money. The blood money then could be used on Domination additionally it could be used to buy upgrades/skins/perks on the life server. One example would be a very heavy defib that is consumed on use but is stupidly fast at reviving. or other infamy like perks (How we stop this from being a modifier mess again im not sure)

This, to me, reads like the best solution to stop the hoarding of money from domination (though I still feel like it's shutting the gate after the horse has already bolted), some sort of mechanism where blood money is the currency of domination and its usefulness is almost entirely removed on S1. Perhaps a "laundromat" on the main server where blood money and asylum money can be converted. Regular money -> blood money at almost no cost, and blood money -> regular money at a heavy tax (say 30%). It could also be done on the domination server to prevent people having to hop on S1 5 minutes before dom because they're broke, so you won't enrage that playergroup. At the end of the domination, each player gets paid out in blood money only.

A more extreme solution, if you're really seeking one, could be to cap the amount of profit someone can make relative to their buy-in, and any excess to the cap would go back to the pot? No idea how that would work, but it'd stop people logging into the winning team for 30 minutes, AFKing on spawn island and then leaving at the end with ~1.4 mil profit I guess

On making dom more rare, +1 on shutting down weekday dom since they are generally poorly attended nowadays anyway.

Tyrone Darnell and Djmon like this
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1 hour ago, Patato said:

Dom is a struggle.
Pre-nerf
Almost every player was profitable. 
The issue with Dom is no money comes out and we only put money in. Every dime you spend goes into a pot which will eventually see another player get that money. In the eyes of an overall economy this means the fight is "Free" because /someone/ will get the money. Where as on life once you purchase an MK that money is gone and can't come back. The MK will eventually be lost/seized

Best real world example is that Asylum is a poker room hosting a poker table. Players come in with their own money to gamble against each other. Obviously we want a successful Poker room so we offer incentives for people to join the poker room (Again this is pre nerf scenario) 10mil starting pot + prizes. Issue is a real poker room then takes a rake of every hand, sells drinks and services which means they can recoup some of the initial investment. 

Poker room also doesn't have a pit boss sit and stuff $20 into your pocket every 30 seconds (SRT/BloodMoney/Quests).
(They also don't have Admins with infinite money buying all the armor for their group putting a ton of money into the pot at a cost to the server while advantaging their group)

I have no problem putting money in to see people play Domination, It brings in potential people who would not otherwise be exposed to Asylum. The issue is how much, sure some players may take their Dom winnings and never join life - yes some people treat blood money as a leaderboard and have never spent a dollar. However some amount of money will come into the life server that the economy has to deal with. Ive heard the ludicrous argument that bank account doesn't matter and that I shouldn't care if someone has 1mil or 10mil because "Its the same thing" if that were true why would we bother at all? Everything would just be free. You also wouldn't have nearly as many complaints about admins doing dumb shit with infinite money. The negative effects of having too much money were already taking shape when i came back from my break.

This is all before typical Asylum shenanigan's such as buying a ton of armor knowing you will get the lions share of the pot (as again everything you buy goes into the pot) then chopping/selling the frits you got most of the money back on for an additional profit. 

Ive flip flopped back and forth a few times now on my own. The truth is Domination is still generating far more money than the life server, I don't know the solution to it without adversly affecting either one server or the other.

I don't think this is a scenario where its Tanoa 2.0 and the server is being entirely propped up by money. (In which case i would just laugh as it died)
But as we have seen money is obviously an issue when taken away.

I personally don't feel Dom would survive on its own if we entirely separated out Dom cash from Asylum cash. (Meaning you would convert say 100k Asylum coin into 1mil dom cash to play with then either could only return it to life cash at a reduced percentage or not at all) 

I also have reservations about further linking them. Throw away Idea's ive had.
1.) Similar to infamy, 10% of any money you earn from illegal activities on life is converted to blood money. The blood money then could be used on Domination additionally it could be used to buy upgrades/skins/perks on the life server. One example would be a very heavy defib that is consumed on use but is stupidly fast at reviving. or other infamy like perks (How we stop this from being a modifier mess again im not sure)
2.) Having some sort of system where you would basically have to buy or craft vehicles on life for use on dom. Any vehicles purchased on Dom would not go towards the pot and the funds be eaten by the server. (This would act as our rake) But ill admit forgetting to log onto life 5mins before dom and spamming buy doesn't really seem to help us all that much and is just throwing money at a governor. 


Its stuck in a weird spot. Is it a hardcore PvP server where you risk it all for a big reward. (In which case someone has to lose big for another to win big)
Or is it a place to have a good time, possibly make a few bucks. (In which case no one wins big but everyone breaks even)
I could type more but this is the base of the issue.

@Richard

Personal note i think dom happens to frequently and was bound to feel less "Special"
If you only ran it 1-2 times a week & on holidays its easier too feel better about making that starting pot higher

I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of meeting with the gangs that play.  It would be good for the players and the devs/admins actually talk about these issues.

Pixie, Bera, KrazyKnight and 12 others like this
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1 hour ago, Invictus said:

I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of meeting with the gangs that play.  It would be good for the players and the devs/admins actually talk about these issues.

Second this. That's why I was really happy when we had that one community meeting. Felt like the right direction to get talks going.

Tyrone Darnell likes this
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5 hours ago, Patato said:


Personal note i think dom happens to frequently and was bound to feel less "Special"
If you only ran it 1-2 times a week & on holidays its easier too feel better about making that starting pot higher

Yeah that's what I meant when I was saying it should happen less

Austin M likes this
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5 hours ago, Patato said:

Dom is a struggle.
Pre-nerf
Almost every player was profitable. 
The issue with Dom is no money comes out and we only put money in. Every dime you spend goes into a pot which will eventually see another player get that money. In the eyes of an overall economy this means the fight is "Free" because /someone/ will get the money. Where as on life once you purchase an MK that money is gone and can't come back. The MK will eventually be lost/seized

Best real world example is that Asylum is a poker room hosting a poker table. Players come in with their own money to gamble against each other. Obviously we want a successful Poker room so we offer incentives for people to join the poker room (Again this is pre nerf scenario) 10mil starting pot + prizes. Issue is a real poker room then takes a rake of every hand, sells drinks and services which means they can recoup some of the initial investment. 

Poker room also doesn't have a pit boss sit and stuff $20 into your pocket every 30 seconds (SRT/BloodMoney/Quests).
(They also don't have Admins with infinite money buying all the armor for their group putting a ton of money into the pot at a cost to the server while advantaging their group)

I have no problem putting money in to see people play Domination, It brings in potential people who would not otherwise be exposed to Asylum. The issue is how much, sure some players may take their Dom winnings and never join life - yes some people treat blood money as a leaderboard and have never spent a dollar. However some amount of money will come into the life server that the economy has to deal with. Ive heard the ludicrous argument that bank account doesn't matter and that I shouldn't care if someone has 1mil or 10mil because "Its the same thing" if that were true why would we bother at all? Everything would just be free. You also wouldn't have nearly as many complaints about admins doing dumb shit with infinite money. The negative effects of having too much money were already taking shape when i came back from my break.

This is all before typical Asylum shenanigan's such as buying a ton of armor knowing you will get the lions share of the pot (as again everything you buy goes into the pot) then chopping/selling the frits you got most of the money back on for an additional profit. 

Ive flip flopped back and forth a few times now on my own. The truth is Domination is still generating far more money than the life server, I don't know the solution to it without adversly affecting either one server or the other.

I don't think this is a scenario where its Tanoa 2.0 and the server is being entirely propped up by money. (In which case i would just laugh as it died)
But as we have seen money is obviously an issue when taken away.

I personally don't feel Dom would survive on its own if we entirely separated out Dom cash from Asylum cash. (Meaning you would convert say 100k Asylum coin into 1mil dom cash to play with then either could only return it to life cash at a reduced percentage or not at all) 

I also have reservations about further linking them. Throw away Idea's ive had.
1.) Similar to infamy, 10% of any money you earn from illegal activities on life is converted to blood money. The blood money then could be used on Domination additionally it could be used to buy upgrades/skins/perks on the life server. One example would be a very heavy defib that is consumed on use but is stupidly fast at reviving. or other infamy like perks (How we stop this from being a modifier mess again im not sure)
2.) Having some sort of system where you would basically have to buy or craft vehicles on life for use on dom. Any vehicles purchased on Dom would not go towards the pot and the funds be eaten by the server. (This would act as our rake) But ill admit forgetting to log onto life 5mins before dom and spamming buy doesn't really seem to help us all that much and is just throwing money at a governor. 


Its stuck in a weird spot. Is it a hardcore PvP server where you risk it all for a big reward. (In which case someone has to lose big for another to win big)
Or is it a place to have a good time, possibly make a few bucks. (In which case no one wins big but everyone breaks even)
I could type more but this is the base of the issue.

@Richard

Personal note i think dom happens to frequently and was bound to feel less "Special"
If you only ran it 1-2 times a week & on holidays its easier too feel better about making that starting pot higher

man you're so braindead. You have to make dom profitable otherwise nobody will fucking play the game. dont believe me? go look at dom rn. Literally just revert it and dont touch it man, people have been playing this server for so many years and the economy has never been a problem it isn't now and it wont be. you will never see a thing change. I still buy the same amount of sui vests even though it costs 500% more than it did 2 years ago, I still blow up my orca's and I still buy a shitty RPG that does less than my MK-1. You doing anything to the economy doesn't change shit, all it does is piss us players off even more that I have to spend 250k instead of 50k on my sui vest. it's not stopping anyone and at the end of the day we're still playing the game the same. you tried fixing ifrit meta by making it a crazy price and it didn't fix shit. I still buy and pull the same amount of ifrits, all you've managed to do is make me dislike you more for forcing me to pay more. The economy doesn't change a single bit. If we as a gang felt like we needed money we'd go hit a 5 man fed and make 2.5 million between the five of us. You're fucking with a delicate balance of desire to play the game. and slowly all you've managed to do is tip it the wrong way. If I were in your shoes I'd realize the importance have having a full server with a loaded economy compared to a dead server with a dead economy.

abdul karim azeem and Elevato like this
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14 minutes ago, Infamous [FULL SEND] said:

man you're so braindead. You have to make dom profitable otherwise nobody will fucking play the game. dont believe me? go look at dom rn. Literally just revert it and dont touch it man, people have been playing this server for so many years and the economy has never been a problem it isn't now and it wont be. you will never see a thing change. I still buy the same amount of sui vests even though it costs 500% more than it did 2 years ago, I still blow up my orca's and I still buy a shitty RPG that does less than my MK-1. You doing anything to the economy doesn't change shit, all it does is piss us players off even more that I have to spend 250k instead of 50k on my sui vest. it's not stopping anyone and at the end of the day we're still playing the game the same. you tried fixing ifrit meta by making it a crazy price and it didn't fix shit. I still buy and pull the same amount of ifrits, all you've managed to do is make me dislike you more for forcing me to pay more. The economy doesn't change a single bit. If we as a gang felt like we needed money we'd go hit a 5 man fed and make 2.5 million between the five of us. You're fucking with a delicate balance of desire to play the game. and slowly all you've managed to do is tip it the wrong way. If I were in your shoes I'd realize the importance have having a full server with a loaded economy compared to a dead server with a dead economy.

You seem kind of confused, Incase you didnt notice their was a period between when slick left and Obi/Mitch/Myself joined and started helping.

Ifirit Prices/Explosive prices were set & done well before i came back to help.
When i joined back we had dropped down to about 50-60 players. Asylum was on life support.
We are now currently 2nd on Battle metrics. 

Despite all of my "Shit changes" and "Attempts to kill the server"
We are still maxed out 141/141 on a wednesday

The lack of regard for any economy prior to my return is what led to an empty server.

Im sure you didnt care about prices because you sat in a Fortress with 20% discounts that couldn't be capped by anyone else. Lockpick bonus that simply didnt match what was on the patch notes. and a quest that was randomly handled outside of the correct file which randomly gave you extra modifiers on sui vest on top of all other discounts

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1 minute ago, Patato said:

Im sure you didnt care about prices because you sat in a Fortress with 20% discounts that couldn't be capped by anyone else. Lockpick bonus that simply didnt match what was on the patch notes. and a quest that was randomly handled outside of the correct file which randomly gave you extra modifiers on sui vest on top of all other discounts

nigga I couldn't give a single fuck about 20% discounts. 

 

2 minutes ago, Patato said:

that couldn't be capped by anyone else.

it didn't matter, bub, nobody else capped it until you found out....It didn't change shit.

and I know it was genry the neckbeard who changed the prices, but still as a collective of developers you're not doing the right things imo. You and I both know the server was dead because of the time of the year, it always dies in october-january. Nobody wants to do runs, nobody is gonna do runs, and you probably think why's that? because runs pay like shit, and why do they pay like shit? because you've made them pay like shit. At the end of the day you've killed dom and you dont care enough to bring it back all because you want a better economy. I guess it's ecomony > players.

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19 minutes ago, Infamous [FULL SEND] said:

nigga I couldn't give a single fuck about 20% discounts. 

 

it didn't matter, bub, nobody else capped it until you found out....It didn't change shit.

and I know it was genry the neckbeard who changed the prices, but still as a collective of developers you're not doing the right things imo. You and I both know the server was dead because of the time of the year, it always dies in october-january. Nobody wants to do runs, nobody is gonna do runs, and you probably think why's that? because runs pay like shit, and why do they pay like shit? because you've made them pay like shit. At the end of the day you've killed dom and you dont care enough to bring it back all because you want a better economy. I guess it's ecomony > players.

Weird, Things got along just fine for years economically, by and large after gnashes i helped to make money easier. But they were moderate changes. The economy isn't a razor thin wire that I have to micro manage. But as I have said before 9 months put more money into asylum than the previous 9 years. If thats how much money you guys want to make then the price of everything has to go up, its just natural. Genry migtht have been heavy handed and no one wants to pay for 250k Ifirits and explosives. But the feedback at the time was that players were sick of being blown up at every turn and he wasn't give much other options.

And thats great, your specific group of elite PVPers can sit and do back to back feds and be rewarded financially for their skill. 75 people sitting farming golden wax and never talking to anyone. not so much
 

19 minutes ago, Infamous [FULL SEND] said:

october-january.

Thats flat out wrong historically speaking finals into summer is where we struggle. Its very important we build up momentum with players during oct-jan to push us through the summer months when kids can touch grass.

Also i should mention the current day - day economy is trending much healthier if you ignore domination outright. Im hopeful that we can continue to scale back prices in the coming weeks on most of big ticket items.

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20 hours ago, Patato said:

Dom is a struggle.
Pre-nerf
Almost every player was profitable. 
The issue with Dom is no money comes out and we only put money in. Every dime you spend goes into a pot which will eventually see another player get that money. In the eyes of an overall economy this means the fight is "Free" because /someone/ will get the money. Where as on life once you purchase an MK that money is gone and can't come back. The MK will eventually be lost/seized

Best real world example is that Asylum is a poker room hosting a poker table. Players come in with their own money to gamble against each other. Obviously we want a successful Poker room so we offer incentives for people to join the poker room (Again this is pre nerf scenario) 10mil starting pot + prizes. Issue is a real poker room then takes a rake of every hand, sells drinks and services which means they can recoup some of the initial investment. 

Poker room also doesn't have a pit boss sit and stuff $20 into your pocket every 30 seconds (SRT/BloodMoney/Quests).
(They also don't have Admins with infinite money buying all the armor for their group putting a ton of money into the pot at a cost to the server while advantaging their group)

I have no problem putting money in to see people play Domination, It brings in potential people who would not otherwise be exposed to Asylum. The issue is how much, sure some players may take their Dom winnings and never join life - yes some people treat blood money as a leaderboard and have never spent a dollar. However some amount of money will come into the life server that the economy has to deal with. Ive heard the ludicrous argument that bank account doesn't matter and that I shouldn't care if someone has 1mil or 10mil because "Its the same thing" if that were true why would we bother at all? Everything would just be free. You also wouldn't have nearly as many complaints about admins doing dumb shit with infinite money. The negative effects of having too much money were already taking shape when i came back from my break.

This is all before typical Asylum shenanigan's such as buying a ton of armor knowing you will get the lions share of the pot (as again everything you buy goes into the pot) then chopping/selling the frits you got most of the money back on for an additional profit. 

Ive flip flopped back and forth a few times now on my own. The truth is Domination is still generating far more money than the life server, I don't know the solution to it without adversly affecting either one server or the other.

I don't think this is a scenario where its Tanoa 2.0 and the server is being entirely propped up by money. (In which case i would just laugh as it died)
But as we have seen money is obviously an issue when taken away.

I personally don't feel Dom would survive on its own if we entirely separated out Dom cash from Asylum cash. (Meaning you would convert say 100k Asylum coin into 1mil dom cash to play with then either could only return it to life cash at a reduced percentage or not at all) 

I also have reservations about further linking them. Throw away Idea's ive had.
1.) Similar to infamy, 10% of any money you earn from illegal activities on life is converted to blood money. The blood money then could be used on Domination additionally it could be used to buy upgrades/skins/perks on the life server. One example would be a very heavy defib that is consumed on use but is stupidly fast at reviving. or other infamy like perks (How we stop this from being a modifier mess again im not sure)
2.) Having some sort of system where you would basically have to buy or craft vehicles on life for use on dom. Any vehicles purchased on Dom would not go towards the pot and the funds be eaten by the server. (This would act as our rake) But ill admit forgetting to log onto life 5mins before dom and spamming buy doesn't really seem to help us all that much and is just throwing money at a governor. 


Its stuck in a weird spot. Is it a hardcore PvP server where you risk it all for a big reward. (In which case someone has to lose big for another to win big)
Or is it a place to have a good time, possibly make a few bucks. (In which case no one wins big but everyone breaks even)
I could type more but this is the base of the issue.

@Richard

Personal note i think dom happens to frequently and was bound to feel less "Special"
If you only ran it 1-2 times a week & on holidays its easier too feel better about making that starting pot higher

What if you took out lets say 15% and voided that money upon every loadout purchase? That would help the inflation and mitigate some of the money into the asylum pit of nothing. If money is really the issue you could lower the starting pot to 5m, (not sure if that was done yet) along with making dom more scarce by having it only on maybe Thursday and Saturday. I also feel like your idea with the dom cash would actually work. I feel like if you made people transfer their dom bucks into asylum cash it would make people want to keep their cash and only use it on the domination server. The only downside to that would be that people who only play for money wouldn't wanna play anymore. So basically you would have less pop. The good thing about that is that the only people who play for money are roaches, and scat gangs; That being said it would keep the only relevant gangs on the server. 

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21 hours ago, Invictus said:

I think it would be a good idea to have some sort of meeting with the gangs that play.  It would be good for the players and the devs/admins actually talk about these issues.

 

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