Hypocrisy

[hamsham12]

I just wanted to tell a few incidents of hypocrisy on the Asylum servers, although this isnt intentional to cause flame wars or bring out negativity towards any player, some of you may take it that way.

(Let me preface this by saying everyone's been a hypocrite or been apart of a hypocritical situation, none of us are immune to it, but those in positions of power and leadership should refrain from doing said acts.)

 

Incident #1: An admin is friends with a group of people who gets "RDM'd" by a friend of mine, although they were fresh spawns and he offered to comp, he received a 2 week ban, without the chance of lowering the ban. The said admin is friends with the people got got "RDM'd" so they joined the admin's TS channel and complained about it, made a player report, and may have not even had proof as the admin wouldn't answer the question if my friend could see the video or not. (TL:DR - Admins being friends with people who get RDM'd should not have special treatment).

 

Incident #2: A SGT is playing cop on server #3, his gang logs on civ and does the bank, the SGT sees this and order for tracers to be used, although there are only two of them and they're both on TOP of the ATM roof, just watching the ladder. A different SGT asks if he should pull an orca, the gangs SGT orders him not to, just because there are only two of them...Then a couple of constables somehow get on top of the ATM roof and down/restrain both of them, this is a fail on the rebels part, not a good action among the police, one-way up one-way down, the rebels should of been watching it; anyways the rebels complained the officers somehow exploited to get to the roof and the gangs SGT gives a stern talking to to the constables who downed/restrained them and pardons the rebels after, even though they're in the same gang without proper proof of exploitation or breaking the rules. (TL:DR - Gang SGT gives special treatment to his gang while they're on civ).

 

Incident #3: A Captain of the APD sees a LT answer his own gangs internal affair/player report, the Captain drags said LT into a channel and completely chews him out, although this goes on everyday and other LT's aren't as punished, nor even get talked to half the time, although the LT didn't get points or removed, he got this talking due to the fact he was in the same gang, a disliked gang on the Asylum servers. (TL:DR - Captains dislike gang, take special action upon officers in said gang).

 

Incident #4: New RDM rules changed, you must give a proper command, and time for the suspect to abide by before downing/shooting. An admin/honorary LT, knows the new rules and completely agrees with them, argues the pros/cons on the forum post about the new rule. Gang A is flying about around the chop shop where the admin/LT and his friends are camping, the admins see this and pull a .50, the rebels see this and go towards the air-fuel station as they're almost out of gas, they are ~1k away from the chop shop and no initiation was held prior, the admin/LT asked his friend to send the orca a text to "land or die" or something along those lines, something that we did, and were planning on doing, the admin/LT gave the rebels maybe 2 seconds before lighting the whole orca up and killing ten people, admin/LT gets no talking to, doesn't offer to comp and frankly doesn't care. Although when a rebel of this gang shoots a pilot out of a hellcat without proper time/initiation gets banned by the same admin who committed the first offense. (TL:DR - Admin/LT gets to RDM whoever and gets no ban/talking to or offers to comp vs a civ in rebel gang who does the same and gets banned by same admin).

 

I left names out to refrain from flaming, shit talking, and just general hate, now i'm not saying hypocrisy shouldn't happen, i'm both a victim and a culprit of it, I just think people in leadership roles shouldn't blatantly disregard the rules just because of a personal vendetta with said gang/person.

 

TL:DR I'm a little bitch who just wants people in leadership roles to have some sort of common courtesy..

Edited February 20, 2016 by hamsham12

[kryptonthegamer]

+1 since this is essentially how Asylum is ran and the admin team / devs really don't care to change that....not sure why 

[hamsham12]

2 minutes ago, Kryptonn said:

+1 since this is essentially how Asylum is ran and the admin team / devs really don't care to change that....not sure why 

I know power-tripping is a hard thing to avoid, and almost everyone does it in any sort of powerful position, but you have to look at the other end of the spectrum.

[kryptonthegamer]

Just now, hamsham12 said:

I know power-tripping is a hard thing to avoid, and almost everyone does it in any sort of powerful position, but you have to look at the other end of the spectrum.

Not hard to remove someone that abuses their power. I'm not retarded...I know when I abuse power and most of those people ought ot be looking over their shoulder when abusing...instead they know it's encouraged in their little clique.

[King Destroyer]

Inb4 post lock!!! But +100 this

[SheriffJohnBeard]

Preach Hashman!

[Seán That Irish Guy]

4 minutes ago, Kryptonn said:

Not hard to remove someone that abuses their power.

It is on asylum.

[HapHazard]

All i'm going to say is that those who have been proven to be truly abusing their power have been removed in the past. It's easy to say its abuse when its on you but as Hamsham said, most people have done the same as these so called "abusers". Provide definitive proof of actual Abuse and shit happens. SEE: Yoven, Fanzer, Hammerlock etc etc 

Bias and "Favoritism" is always going to be a thing, as hard as people try to not have it affect decisions or situations. 

 

That's all from me.

[hamsham12]

Just now, Haphazard said:

All i'm going to say is that those who have been proven to be truly abusing their power have been removed in the past. It's easy to say its abuse when its on you but as Hamsham said, most people have done the same as these so called "abusers". Provide definitive proof and shit happens. SEE: Yoven, Fanzer, Hammerlock etc etc 

Bias and "Favoritism" is always going to be a thing, as hard as people try to not have an effect on decisions or situations. 

 

That's all from me.

 

Exactly, and all this is said without proof, some of the incidents above have proof along with them, just didn't want to post any in this post due to the fact I blurred names to keep negativity from this post.

[Mc Duushe]

A thread where Haphazard doesn't lock it?!

 

FAVORITISM! 

 

I've been on the receiving end of the boot way too many times. I simply get even with them by brushing it off as if nothing happened.

[Shepurd]

Plus 1

[Whitey]

+1 for keeping people names anonymous

+1 for writing this well

+1 for trying to remain unbiased 

+1 for not making it a flame post...

Total: +4

[Romulus]

I believe in everyone having a opinion and voicing it as long as it is done in a constructive way and not putting people on blast.

 

[Gatorade]

I hope they dont lock this thread, it isnt a flame thread. More or less a "We see what you did there.... stop it" Thread without naming anyone.

He took the time and wrote it out well, +1

[hamsham12]

And these are just incidents im informed of, i'm sure there are many more.

[Hakeem]

Holy sh1t... and I thought they only hated me or my gangmates 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Hakeem

[Vanilla Coke]

Holy shit. +1 million.

[Seán That Irish Guy]

1 hour ago, Haphazard said:

All i'm going to say is that those who have been proven to be truly abusing their power have been removed in the past. It's easy to say its abuse when its on you but as Hamsham said, most people have done the same as these so called "abusers". Provide definitive proof of actual Abuse and shit happens. SEE: Yoven, Fanzer, Hammerlock etc etc 

Bias and "Favoritism" is always going to be a thing, as hard as people try to not have it affect decisions or situations. 

 

That's all from me.

With higher ups and some admins when incidents happen they either get spoken to or a slap on the wrist. In order for it to stop and be something to be feared with result in punishment an example needs to be made. Yes fanzer etc was some what of an example but that was major, over the top examples that hardly ever occur. The ones that are the problem are the ones that involve small groups/circles of people that know damn well that they can go on as they please. Those are the people who need to be made example of because if one group gets shutdown the others will know that their shit wont be taking anymore.

My 2cents on the topic.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Sean That Irish Guy

[Hakeem]

I just want to say I have seen and been a victim of (clearly) an abusive use of power, wont give more details to avoid drama but you know when something isn't right specially when you have almost 2 years playing this "mod" /mission in this server. Would really like to see new admins, (with no gang affiliations) we have ( I think so) some good admins, cool, they understand how things work, and the same for the APD some higher ups are cool and they know how to handle things BUT we also have admins that use 2 types of judgement for VERY similar cases/scenarios etc etc and what  can I say about the APD... if we have admins doing shitty things like this what can we expect from ( some SGT, LTs) the APD

Edited February 20, 2016 by Hakeem

[HapHazard]

Is it considered Abuse when they rightfully ban someone, even though the person banned thinks they are innocent? There are no 2 situations the same, every video that comes across our desks is different in many ways, which is why you may have the opinion that two "identical" situations were handled differently. In my almost 2 years as an Admin here, I have yet to see two reports that are "Very Similar".

Contrary to the belief of those who think they've been wronged, we use the other Admins as Sounding Boards for bans and for 2nd, third, fourth (it goes on) opinions on things that aren't super obvious on a report. Many times myself, I've had something pointed out that was initially missed, which completely changed the way the report is handled.

Remember, we are all human after all. Mistakes have, can and will be made. Whether you agree with your ban or not, if you approach the situation with rage and anger, there is a good chance you won't be heard the way you would like to be heard. I understand it can be difficult, but witholding your anger and rage, and approching with a calm, mature demeanor in order to explain your side of the situation respectfully will get you a lot farther then you would think.

Its a lot easier to deal with someone when they aren't screaming and yelling at you, or typing in CAPS for that matter.

 

We do have checks and balances in place, trust me(Which is easier for me to say, then for you to do). Our job is to try and make this community enjoyable for everyone who logs in to the servers, and occasionally feathers will be ruffled, its the nature of what we're doing here.

 

[King Destroyer]

I think if an admin does bann someome ingame while it had something to do with such admin. The admin should be required to show proof to back up such ban...not just you gotta take my word for it...so that they can clearly show how the bann os fair

[HapHazard]

12 minutes ago, Destroyer said:

I think if an admin does bann someome ingame while it had something to do with such admin. The admin should be required to show proof to back up such ban...not just you gotta take my word for it...so that they can clearly show how the bann os fair

90% of the time, said Admin is usually playing with 4-7 other Admins who all witnessed the exact same thing happen. For that other 10%, if the ban was wrong, we get called on that shit super quick by other admins and/or the CM's.

 

Lets be honest, if you get banned, you are never gonna actually think you deserved it. Thats human nature.

[King Destroyer]

3 minutes ago, Haphazard said:

90% of the time, said Admin is usually playing with 4-7 other Admins who all witnessed the exact same thing happen. For that other 10%, if the ban was wrong, we get called on that shit super quick by other admins and/or the CM's.

 

Lets be honest, if you get banned, you are never gonna actually think you deserved it. Thats human nature.

I agree up to a point...in rdm for example there is sometimes gray areas that would result in the ban being lifted but in the case such admin says he witnessed you do it then banns you. And doesnt record the actual event how are you supposed to get unbanned

[King Destroyer]

Its better for such admin to say "heres why youre not getting unbanned" *links you the evidence* than oh i saw you...no appeal for you

[hamsham12]

14 minutes ago, Haphazard said:

90% of the time, said Admin is usually playing with 4-7 other Admins who all witnessed the exact same thing happen. For that other 10%, if the ban was wrong, we get called on that shit super quick by other admins and/or the CM's.

 

Lets be honest, if you get banned, you are never gonna actually think you deserved it. Thats human nature.

 

If you have time hit me up in teamspeak so I can talk to you about a certain admin, should only take ~5 minutes.

[Gatorade]

19 minutes ago, Haphazard said:

90% of the time, said Admin is usually playing with 4-7 other Admins who all witnessed the exact same thing happen. For that other 10%, if the ban was wrong, we get called on that shit super quick by other admins and/or the CM's.

 

Lets be honest, if you get banned, you are never gonna actually think you deserved it. Thats human nature.

If anyone thinks for one moment admins get away with shit, then you havn't talked to bamf. Bamf will take care of an admin in a heartbeat if you have any proof / actual base. With that being said, The cops are the ones who get around with the sneaky shit more then the occasional admin RDM - Which happens and is blatent

[HapHazard]

1 minute ago, Sugarfoot said:

If anyone thinks for one moment admins get away with shit, then you havn't talked to bamf. Bamf will take care of an admin in a heartbeat if you have any proof / actual base. 

This.

 

Also, when we play as a group, we face the same miscommunication and talking over each other as some gangs do, which can lead to bad shit happening. We're generally pretty quick to provide comp in these cases.(Even with Gnashes yelling Tac-Coms super loudly)

[hamsham12]

5 minutes ago, Haphazard said:

This.

 

Also, when we play as a group, we face the same miscommunication and talking over each other as some gangs do, which can lead to bad shit happening. We're generally pretty quick to provide comp in these cases.(Even with Gnashes yelling Tac-Coms super loudly)

=[

[Buckwalter]

55 minutes ago, hamsham12 said:

I just wanted to tell a few incidents of hypocrisy on the Asylum servers, although this isnt intentional to cause flame wars or bring out negativity towards any player, some of you may take it that way.

(Let me preface this by saying everyone's been a hypocrite or been apart of a hypocritical situation, none of us are immune to it, but those in positions of power and leadership should refrain from doing said acts.)

 

Incident #1: An admin is friends with a group of people who gets "RDM'd" by a friend of mine, although they were fresh spawns and he offered to comp, he received a 2 week ban, without the chance of lowering the ban. The said admin is friends with the people got got "RDM'd" so they joined the admin's TS channel and complained about it, made a player report, and may have not even had proof as the admin wouldn't answer the question if my friend could see the video or not. (TL:DR - Admins being friends with people who get RDM'd should not have special treatment).

 

Incident #2: A SGT is playing cop on server #3, his gang logs on civ and does the bank, the SGT sees this and order for tracers to be used, although there are only two of them and they're both on TOP of the ATM roof, just watching the ladder. A different SGT asks if he should pull an orca, the gangs SGT orders him not to, just because there are only two of them...Then a couple of constables somehow get on top of the ATM roof and down/restrain both of them, this is a fail on the rebels part, not a good action among the police, one-way up one-way down, the rebels should of been watching it; anyways the rebels complained the officers somehow exploited to get to the roof and the gangs SGT gives a stern talking to to the constables who downed/restrained them and pardons the rebels after, even though they're in the same gang without proper proof of exploitation or breaking the rules. (TL:DR - Gang SGT gives special treatment to his gang while they're on civ).

 

Incident #3: A Captain of the APD sees a LT answer his own gangs internal affair/player report, the Captain drags said LT into a channel and completely chews him out, although this goes on everyday and other LT's aren't as punished, nor even get talked to half the time, although the LT didn't get points or removed, he got this talking due to the fact he was in the same gang, a disliked gang on the Asylum servers. (TL:DR - Captains dislike gang, take special action upon officers in said gang).

 

Incident #4: New RDM rules changed, you must give a proper command, and time for the suspect to abide by before downing/shooting. An admin/honorary LT, knows the new rules and completely agrees with them, argues the pros/cons on the forum post about the new rule. Gang A is flying about around the chop shop where the admin/LT and his friends are camping, the admins see this and pull a .50, the rebels see this and go towards the air-fuel station as they're almost out of gas, they are ~1k away from the chop shop and no initiation was held prior, the admin/LT asked his friend to send the orca a text to "land or die" or something along those lines, something that we did, and were planning on doing, the admin/LT gave the rebels maybe 2 seconds before lighting the whole orca up and killing ten people, admin/LT gets no talking to, doesn't offer to comp and frankly doesn't care. Although when a rebel of this gang shoots a pilot out of a hellcat without proper time/initiation gets banned by the same admin who committed the first offense. (TL:DR - Admin/LT gets to RDM whoever and gets no ban/talking to or offers to comp vs a civ in rebel gang who does the same and gets banned by same admin).

 

I left names out to refrain from flaming, shit talking, and just general hate, now i'm not saying hypocrisy shouldn't happen, i'm both a victim and a culprit of it, I just think people in leadership roles shouldn't blatantly disregard the rules just because of a personal vendetta with said gang/person.

 

TL:DR I'm a little bitch who just wants people in leadership roles to have some sort of common courtesy..

Thanks for keeping things polite and helping prevent flaming etc.

As for your points, I'd like to address them and hopefully give an alternative perspective. 

Situation #1: First point to keep in mind is that by and large, ban times are not discretionary. They are based on a strict system of escalation with each successive infraction. So in the situation you describe, the individual in question likely had a number of prior RDM offenses. As for the actual mechanism of the ban, I can't speculate about specifics but based on your summary it seems the most likely scenario was that an admin was present but playing under an alias, witnessed the event and banned accordingly. 

This happens more than you might expect since many of us use pseudonyms when playing civ in order to get an unfettered perspective of the state of the server. As far as the standard of proof, that is rigidly structured by policy laid out by Bamf and Motown and it is immutable as far as the admin team is concerned. So if a ban occurs, there is either sufficient evidence or direct witness. However, if you suspect misconduct, please don't hesitate to raise these points with a CM.

Situation #2: Sounds sketchy, cops shouldn't pardon anyone they're associated with. Setting aside the policy violation, it's just a sketchy thing to do ethically. Should probably submit that one. Just my opinion. 

Situation #3: I'm not a higher up so I can't speak with any degree of authority about the inner workings of the current policy. However, as stated above, simply on the ground of ethics there should exist a thick firewall between people in positions of power and their associates/friends/gangmates etc. But it seems that your main complaint is the perception that some are given preferential treatment while others are treated more harshly. There is simply no way of knowing if that's the case, neither you, nor I, are privy to the captains' disciplinary records. So I won't attempt to discuss it. 

That being said, people should be treated the same for the same infraction. However one possible explanation for any discrepancy would be differences in the nature, context and severity of a given report. For instance, someone will be treated much more harshly for handling a report where their friend is the accused as opposed to a report where they are the one reporting. But again, I don't have specifics, so I'm just providing an alternative explanation.

People should be treated equally irrespective of gang affiliation. On this we agree completely.

Situation #4: I vaguely recall that situation. I seem to remember there was some on-going gang vs gang combat taking place. But hey, I could be wrong it was a long time ago. 

 

Now the main point I'm trying to make here is that many times these situations are more innocent than they may appear. That isn't to say that there aren't instances of legitimate abuse of power or corruption. Those things happen for sure, but we try really hard to ensure that when they do, that person is extricated from the community immediately. Secondly, if you see these things, please please please report them. It seems like you don't have a great deal of faith in our administrative or apd staff and that may be a well-earned mistrust borne of some bad incidents. However I would ask that you would please bring these things to us and let us try to work them out.

Because at the end of the day, we all really want the same thing. We want to play Asylum and have fun. Abusive behavior, collusion and graft get in the way of that. 

TL;DR: Many times situations that look like collusion or abuse are actually inadvertent or innocent misunderstands. Real abuse does happen sometimes and when these things come up, please don't hesitate to take it to the appropriate people. Abuse is taken extremely seriously and you should absolutely report it if you see it. 

[Actaea]

If you want change or you want the rights to be wronged, record and report.  I swear we have a thread about this sort of stuff every 3rd day. You don't think person A deserves the 'power' they have been given based on an incident where you were wronged? Tell someone who can fix it. The peanut gallery cant.

[Buckwalter]

Guys, please keep it on topic. This is a discussion worth having, please participate and allow others to do the same. 

Please don't derail, bicker, flame or otherwise post off topic replies. Hamsham has concerns, let's discuss them and leave the meme wars for later.

[Hubschrauber]

17 hours ago, hamsham12 said:

I just wanted to tell a few incidents of hypocrisy on the Asylum servers, although this isnt intentional to cause flame wars or bring out negativity towards any player, some of you may take it that way.

(Let me preface this by saying everyone's been a hypocrite or been apart of a hypocritical situation, none of us are immune to it, but those in positions of power and leadership should refrain from doing said acts.)

 

Incident #1: An admin is friends with a group of people who gets "RDM'd" by a friend of mine, although they were fresh spawns and he offered to comp, he received a 2 week ban, without the chance of lowering the ban. The said admin is friends with the people got got "RDM'd" so they joined the admin's TS channel and complained about it, made a player report, and may have not even had proof as the admin wouldn't answer the question if my friend could see the video or not. (TL:DR - Admins being friends with people who get RDM'd should not have special treatment).

 

Incident #2: A SGT is playing cop on server #3, his gang logs on civ and does the bank, the SGT sees this and order for tracers to be used, although there are only two of them and they're both on TOP of the ATM roof, just watching the ladder. A different SGT asks if he should pull an orca, the gangs SGT orders him not to, just because there are only two of them...Then a couple of constables somehow get on top of the ATM roof and down/restrain both of them, this is a fail on the rebels part, not a good action among the police, one-way up one-way down, the rebels should of been watching it; anyways the rebels complained the officers somehow exploited to get to the roof and the gangs SGT gives a stern talking to to the constables who downed/restrained them and pardons the rebels after, even though they're in the same gang without proper proof of exploitation or breaking the rules. (TL:DR - Gang SGT gives special treatment to his gang while they're on civ).

 

Incident #3: A Captain of the APD sees a LT answer his own gangs internal affair/player report, the Captain drags said LT into a channel and completely chews him out, although this goes on everyday and other LT's aren't as punished, nor even get talked to half the time, although the LT didn't get points or removed, he got this talking due to the fact he was in the same gang, a disliked gang on the Asylum servers. (TL:DR - Captains dislike gang, take special action upon officers in said gang).

 

Incident #4: New RDM rules changed, you must give a proper command, and time for the suspect to abide by before downing/shooting. An admin/honorary LT, knows the new rules and completely agrees with them, argues the pros/cons on the forum post about the new rule. Gang A is flying about around the chop shop where the admin/LT and his friends are camping, the admins see this and pull a .50, the rebels see this and go towards the air-fuel station as they're almost out of gas, they are ~1k away from the chop shop and no initiation was held prior, the admin/LT asked his friend to send the orca a text to "land or die" or something along those lines, something that we did, and were planning on doing, the admin/LT gave the rebels maybe 2 seconds before lighting the whole orca up and killing ten people, admin/LT gets no talking to, doesn't offer to comp and frankly doesn't care. Although when a rebel of this gang shoots a pilot out of a hellcat without proper time/initiation gets banned by the same admin who committed the first offense. (TL:DR - Admin/LT gets to RDM whoever and gets no ban/talking to or offers to comp vs a civ in rebel gang who does the same and gets banned by same admin).

 

I left names out to refrain from flaming, shit talking, and just general hate, now i'm not saying hypocrisy shouldn't happen, i'm both a victim and a culprit of it, I just think people in leadership roles shouldn't blatantly disregard the rules just because of a personal vendetta with said gang/person.

 

TL:DR I'm a little bitch who just wants people in leadership roles to have some sort of common courtesy..

Hamsham, let me start off by thanking you. There does need to be a lot more accountability for people and their actions where it is merited. I can agree and thank you more for attempting to call out instances where you see abuse and, further more, for having the self control to deduct the names from your experiences where you feel a wrong course of action has been taken. Let me start off by announcing to anyone in this thread at I was the Sergeant in the second instance mentioned above. However, I feel as if the events have been incorrectly interpreted and explained here for you. I'll be laying out my reasoning for making such calls and, as I mentioned several times to every cop in the channel, the "buck stops with me" (meaning I hold any and all responsibility for making such a call for those of you unfamiliar with the phrase). 

I am going to be breaking this down per sentence to help clarify the errors in your explanation. 

"A SGT is playing cop on server #3, his gang logs on civ and does the bank, the SGT sees this and order for tracers to be used, although there are only two of them and they're both on TOP of the ATM roof, just watching the ladder."

• Unfortunately Hamsham, this is already an incorrect account of what actually happened. I had ordered lethals to be used on roofs and even gave an additional exception to use lethals. The verbatim quote I believe was, "If you cannot reasonably get to and restrain the person who you are downing, you may lethal them". This is because I give the exact same call at every single bank after it is confirmed that an actual good gang is doing it. I have made that exact same call every single time my gang has been doing the bank (countless times) and I will continue to be doing so until I see that they doing it in very small numbers or until I find it unnecessary (AKA if we have already lethaled a bunch of them or if there are only 3 or less remaining). 
• Now, your account actually starts off at the end of the bank, where I ordered a switch from lethal to non lethal ammunition because there were only 2 out of the many that were actually robbing the bank remaining (the rest were either lethaled or downed by cadets and removed from the bank). If you recall, this was after Kuklinski and Sean had crashed in the orca, leaving just these two people (Diseased and Roguepilot) left on the roof. I still think, as a higher up in the APD, that it is necessary and essential to switch back to non-lethals when you can reasonably apprehend the remaining two people and get to "roll play it out" with them. Feel free to argue that point with me but I would and still do the same for anyone. 

"A different SGT asks if he should pull an orca, the gangs SGT orders him not to, just because there are only two of them"

• Unfortunately Hamsham, this is once again an incorrect account of what actually happened. Skyanide (the other Sergeant he is referred to) was never at any point ordered by myself to not pull a helicopter. I personally thought that we had a better chance of downing the people on the roof with me on the light house and with people hovering in the little bird high above them, sniping off the benches. This is due to me being able to see their heads even when prone when looking straight up to shoot the Hummingbird. There was nothing stopping Skyanide from pulling his Orca and even if I told him directly not to (which I don't have the power to do because we are both Sergeants) he could have just as easily pulled it and came to the bank with it. Once again, your account of this particular instance deviates from the truth by a little, yet important amount. 
• Once again, there was a high chance that they would be apprehended as we had all turned the tide at the bank in the favor of the APD rather quickly compared to how long we were actually fighting at this location. Viiet (another gang member) had stormed the bottom as a cadet and downed many of them as well as many of them were lethaled with about 3 remaining on the roof. (One would be later lethaled off to make it only 2 as we see in this instance). I, as a higher up in the APD, once again see undebatable logic in my decision to switch back to non lethal ammunition due to an extremely low number of remaining rebels. We do not simply want to lethal everyone off and call it a day. Lethals are to be used as a stand in for when non lethal ammunition cannot cut it. When there are 8+ fully geared rebels rolling together (not to mention in a good defensible position), the amount of normal APD members as well as the cost of APD lives needed to restrain and escort people out of an area and prevent them being lock picked is not tantamount (or reasonable) to what we have available. So, lethals should be used as a stand in until we can get that number down to a more manageable parameter. Once that manageable parameter has been reached for each situation, you should switch back over to non lethal. There have been times where I have lethaled the remaining amount of people on the bank due to incorrect call outs (saying there are 4 people instead of 2 resulting in the lethaling of the only 2 remaining people) however this should be followed to best of one's abilities. This bank is no exception. I stand by this line of logic with my dying breath and the fighting of my gang had no effect on my decision to do what I did. 

"Then a couple of constables somehow get on top of the ATM roof and down/restrain both of them, this is a fail on the rebels part, not a good action among the police, one-way up one-way down, the rebels should of been watching it"

• Partially correct, one constable somehow got on top of the ATM roof, and that was via exploiting. Then, cadets followed after he jumped on the roof. It was no failure on part of the rebels, they were watching for people climbing up the ladder, not for people exploiting (unintentionally I believe) to be on the top of it. It was solely won via an exploit, which does not sit right with me as a higher up. I even ended up comping them 20k each for their gun and ammo. 

"anyways the rebels complained the officers somehow exploited to get to the roof and the gangs SGT gives a stern talking to to the constables who downed/restrained them and pardons the rebels after"

• Again, this unfortunately isn't true. I pulled the lone officer aside who did accidentally exploit to the top of the ladder and got video evidence from him showing what happened BEFORE I conversed with my fellow higher up to make the call. The conversation was not stern once so ever. Also, I was never the one to actually do the pardoning. I asked him (the officer in question) what had happened and how he reached the top of the ladder without climbing all the way to the top. The lone officer in question responded with his Gyazo and I asked that he hold on to it because they might push some administration action because the 2 rebels who were caught were under the impression that he did this intentionally. This wasn't a rash decision or one influenced by my association with this gang. I also made sure I was not the one who pardoned them and that myself and Skyanide reached a joint decision before them being pardoned. Hamsham, I know that you know the officer in question here very well. Ask him, next time you see him, if our conversation was "stern".   

"even though they're in the same gang without proper proof of exploitation or breaking the rules. (TL:DR - Gang SGT gives special treatment to his gang while they're on civ)."

• And yet again, unfortunately, is yet another incorrect account of what happened. I made sure I got the Gyazo of the officer's point of view before I made any move. I acquired proper proof before I made any decisions off of it, which isn't what you have done here in my case. This is the part that kind of disappointing me here Hamsham, is that on one hand I love the fact that you are calling out actions that you see as needing to be called out... However, on the other hand, you give a grossly misrepresented account of what actually took place. I really suggest that you go next time and get the full story before seeing it and reporting it simply through one lens. Especially when things are happening behind the scenes which you clearly had no idea about. Especially when I conversed this with other higher ups and reached a joint decision on what fate the two rebels caught would succumb to. I think everyone who has ever played cop with me on server 3 knows fair well I joke about how I am one headshot away on Diseased (the leader of my gang) from being kicked out because of all the Meth and vehicles seized from them and because of all the members I have shot and either downed or killed while on cop. The sad part is, while I make this joke over and over, I actually think it will happen at any moment. The first thing they do every single time I hop in my gang's TS is call me a "rat cop" because I "try hard against them". Hamsham, you honestly couldn't have picked a worse candidate to put forth the "giving partial treatment out to my gang" claim to. 
• Here is the Gyazo of what I used to base my decision off of and to bring it to my fellow higher ups in order to reach the joint decision of both of the rebels in question getting pardoned. https://gyazo.com/aaa13ab105a952829f1c2945156979d2 This is from the officer in question's point of view. 

Edited February 20, 2016 by Hubschrauber

[Sky]

As the Sergeant who was going to pull an orca in incident #2, I can assure you I was not ordered to not use the orca, we agreed it was not the best idea. Also, as far as the pardoning goes, the other Sergeant showed me evidence as to why giving the pardons was necessary. Many of the officers who were on scene as well even AGREED that if the suspects were caught in an unfair manner, they deserved to be let free. If anyone disagreed, they did not speak up from what I can recall. Overall, there was no abuse of power in the case. 

Edit: As Hubs has revealed, the constable that downed the suspects did not get up there legitimately. I doubt this move was intentional, and it was agreed that we could not carry on with regular processing procedures.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Skyanide

[hamsham12]

14 minutes ago, Hubschrauber said:

 

The post wasnt meant to be just about this incident like you and Diseased are making it out to be, your incident was a part of the post, doesn't make the post about you, the names were kept secret, maybe 5-10 people knew who this was about but once again the attempt at making things private is too hard for Insanity to handle, if you wanted to prove me wrong you can private message me exactly what happened and I could of redacted the incident, but instead you feel the need to make this post all and all about your special incident. Hub, you're really disappointing me, looking at this topic one-dimensional, rather than the topic at hand, and thats hypocrisy in the higher-up chain. You and your gang fail to realize this wasnt about you, it was about higher-ups abusing power, and if you would of took the logical approach to it, maybe I would of respected you a bit more.

 

Again all of these incidents,besides one, I wasn't a part of, they were general estimates of what happened and the summary of the story.

Edited February 20, 2016 by hamsham12

[hamsham12]

19 minutes ago, Hubschrauber said:

 

• Here is the Gyazo of what I used to base my decision off of and to bring it to my fellow higher up's in order to reach the joint decision of pardoning both of the rebels in question. https://gyazo.com/aaa13ab105a952829f1c2945156979d2 This is from the officer in question's point of view. 

 

Again, why is this gif valid proof to pardon them? What is this constable doing wrong? the cadet below him got killed, he climbed to the top and downed a guy that could of easily killed him, then the other rebel on the roof (Diseased?) could of EASILY killed that constable but missed 10/12 bullets, yet still a pardon with proof like this leaves a bad taste in my mouth..That comment about one headshot away from getting kicked could of been this right here, but you decided you'd wish to stay in the gang.

 

Anyways done commentating on this specific part of the topic, it isnt about you, wasn't meant to be about you, and wasn't aimed AT YOU.

Edited February 20, 2016 by hamsham12

[hamsham12]

12 minutes ago, Skyanide said:

As the Sergeant who was going to pull an orca in incident #2, I can assure you I was not ordered to not use the orca, we agreed it was not the best idea. Also, as far as the pardoning goes, the other Sergeant showed me evidence as to why giving the pardons was necessary. Many of the officers who were on scene as well even AGREED that if the suspects were caught in an unfair manner, they deserved to be let free. If anyone disagreed, they did not speak up from what I can recall. Overall, there was no abuse of power in the case. 

Edit: As Hubs has revealed, the constable that downed the suspects did not get up their legitimately. I doubt this move was intentional, and it was agreed that we could not carry on with regular processing procedures.

 

But was your statement not along the lines: "Should I pull an orca" when Hub responded, "No theres only two of them" since when does less numbers mean you cant use police issued equipment? Seems everytime I play its six of us vs ten-fifteen cops and orcas, hunters, and striders are pulled everytime. 

 

And then comes with the statement that they glitched, nothing in that gif proves an exploit, and you see how the rebels are just sitting there aiming at the ladder yet no orca was going to be pulled, or lethals authorized, seems still a bit sketchy..

[Brutus]

+1,  #FightTheGoodFight

[HotWings]

13 minutes ago, Skyanide said:

As the Sergeant who was going to pull an orca in incident #2, I can assure you I was not ordered to not use the orca, we agreed it was not the best idea. Also, as far as the pardoning goes, the other Sergeant showed me evidence as to why giving the pardons was necessary. Many of the officers who were on scene as well even AGREED that if the suspects were caught in an unfair manner, they deserved to be let free. If anyone disagreed, they did not speak up from what I can recall. Overall, there was no abuse of power in the case. 

Edit: As Hubs has revealed, the constable that downed the suspects did not get up there legitimately. I doubt this move was intentional, and it was agreed that we could not carry on with regular processing procedures.

I think the point being made was that with many other officers on scene someone else should have done the pardoning.  Doing that is a blatant disregard to APD policy and I can see the OP's point... We are all held accountable to the rules and there is simply no reason whatsoever to break them.  

 

PS. The constable clicked the drop down ladder button to jump off the cadets head, per multiple admins I have spoken to it is considered exploiting as it is not the intended purpose of said action. 

 

[hamsham12]

2 minutes ago, HotWings said:

I think the point being made was that with many other officers on scene someone else should have done the pardoning.  Doing that is a blatant disregard to APD policy and I can see the OP's point... We are all held accountable to the rules and there is simply no reason whatsoever to break them.  

 

PS. The constable clicked the drop down ladder button to jump off the cadets head, per multiple admins I have spoken to it is considered exploiting as it is not the intended purpose of said action. 

 

+1 to #1

and thank you for clearing up the exploit thing, although, diseased had a clear shot at zaxal for multiple seconds can still see where that affects other players.

Edited February 20, 2016 by hamsham12

[HapHazard]

For the last and final time, Keep it on topic. Failure to do so will have your post deleted, and your account given a warning.

Thank you.