Helicopter Warning Shots

[Kip Killigan]

So here is the scenario.  I am sitting in Panagia, buying gear from the turf when I hear a hummingbird coming in.  I hide in the weeds and wait for it to pass.  It flies over and starts hovering near the center of town about 40 meters off the ground.  I move to a new position to retrieve a name to begin initiation.  As I identify the occupants in the helicopter as cops, they happen to spot me and fly toward me.  I then shoot some warning shots into the air, the helicopter is continuing to fly lower and directly at me.  I open fire, spraying the helicopter, and killing an occupant.  An admin who will remain nameless, immediately calls me out for RDM as soon as I am in custody.  I have always attempted to shoot down helicopters after the pilots fail to heed my shots and in a lot of times took the helicopter down.  So is a pilot failing to obey the warning shots initiation to open fire?  Keep in mind no sirens were used, but they were moving lower and right to me and were going to land.  

Here is the only thing I can find on these rules:

"Warning shots are allowed against helicopters that are attempting to land or hover near your position.

If the helicopter does not leave the area after multiple warning shots, you may attempt to disable the helicopter."

The definition of "attempt to disable" needs to be clarified.  We all know if you don't heed warning shots, you are getting shot at.....

[Alex:)]

They mean disable as in shoot the tail rotor out instead of disabling his head 

[Miss Evo]

Just now, Alex:) said:

They mean disable as in shoot the tail rotor out instead of disabling his head 

yeah, maybe engine/main rotor?

[Das Otter]

Just now, Miss Evo said:

yeah, maybe engine/main rotor?

but.....that's the same thing as killing them lol

[Reformed epTic]

I just spray at a helicopter. 
 

If you're dumb enough to ignore multiple warnings, you're dumb enough to lose a heli. 

[Miss Evo]

Just now, Das Otter said:

but.....that's the same thing as killing them lol

so is shooting the tail rotor of a bad pilot

[Das Otter]

7 minutes ago, Miss Evo said:

so is shooting the tail rotor of a bad pilot

that's what i'm saying, shooting the helicopter to disable it and make it crash, is essentially  the same thing as shooting the pilot

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Das Otter

[Jaylen Sarrett]

Just now, Gnashes said:

The key information which is missing here is "how much time passed between your warning shots and killing all occupants".

 

[CyanogenCX]

2 minutes ago, Gnashes said:

The key information which is missing here is "how much time passed between your warning shots and killing all occupants".

Because if it was "first 5 rounds in the air, next 25 into their heads" while spraying on full auto, yeah I'd probably ban you.

 

RDM bans and reports for such incidents are handled on a case by case basis. Your best bet is to properly initiate and not risk getting banned.

Quick question on a similar note, am I allowed to shoot random helicopters to disable them (similar to shooting tires of a moving car) as long as I don't directly kill anyone inside the heli? I know it is risky as the bullets might hit them, but I'm not sure what the answer to this is. Or it would then be rdm if they crashed even though I didn't shoot anyone?

[Dork]

5 minutes ago, CyanogenCX said:

Quick question on a similar note, am I allowed to shoot random helicopters to disable them (similar to shooting tires of a moving car) as long as I don't directly kill anyone inside the heli? I know it is risky as the bullets might hit them, but I'm not sure what the answer to this is. Or it would then be rdm if they crashed even though I didn't shoot anyone?

im definatly doing this if the situation occurs and its not considered RDM. 

I would love to see a medic fly without a tail rotor. lol

[HotWings]

1 hour ago, CyanogenCX said:

Quick question on a similar note, am I allowed to shoot random helicopters to disable them (similar to shooting tires of a moving car) as long as I don't directly kill anyone inside the heli? I know it is risky as the bullets might hit them, but I'm not sure what the answer to this is. Or it would then be rdm if they crashed even though I didn't shoot anyone?

Shoot tires does not make a car explode.... shooting out the engine/rotor of a chopper will likely cause it to exploit on contact with the ground.  Common sense man.

Edited February 24, 2016 by HotWings

[Goldberg Attorney at Law]

The bar is already pretty low for required RP and has been getting lower over time.  How about we try and pick it up a bit instead of asking how low you can go.

[Reformed epTic]

6 minutes ago, Gnashes said:

If you shot the engine out of a random helicopter and anyone died as a result, not only would I ban you, but I would take comp for the heli, and all lost gear, directly from your bank account.

Apparently I'm Gnashes V2 according to some kid on the forums yesterday, can you give me any tips in following in your footsteps? 

I already like guns and anime, what else should I start getting into? 

[Kip Killigan]

26 minutes ago, Gnashes said:

The key information which is missing here is "how much time passed between your warning shots and killing all occupants".

About 5 seconds.  I fired 3 shots on semi into the air, immediately they started moving but instead of leaving they got lower and came right toward me....it was obvious they were going to land.  I then shot at the cockpit killing an occupant.

[Dork]

11 minutes ago, epTic said:

Apparently I'm Gnashes V2 according to some kid on the forums yesterday, can you give me any tips in following in your footsteps? 

I already like guns and anime, what else should I start getting into? 

duping lmao

[Reformed epTic]

6 minutes ago, Gnashes said:

Schadenfreude

I'm already heavy into that. 

Hopefully I can catch you on TS sometime and you can mentor me. 

[CyanogenCX]

1 hour ago, Gnashes said:

If you shot the engine out of a random helicopter and anyone died as a result, not only would I ban you, but I would take comp for the heli, and all lost gear, directly from your bank account.

I didn't mean the engine because yeah the heli would explode then, but what about the tail rotor? I don't plan on doing this since there is a huge chance I'll probably shoot the pilot or someone, plus its a dick move, but overall I was just curious.

[bigjohn561]

2 hours ago, Wildcard said:

So here is the scenario.  I am sitting in Panagia, buying gear from the turf when I hear a hummingbird coming in.  I hide in the weeds and wait for it to pass.  It flies over and starts hovering near the center of town about 40 meters off the ground.  I move to a new position to retrieve a name to begin initiation.  As I identify the occupants in the helicopter as cops, they happen to spot me and fly toward me.  I then shoot some warning shots into the air, the helicopter is continuing to fly lower and directly at me.  I open fire, spraying the helicopter, and killing an occupant.  An admin who will remain nameless, immediately calls me out for RDM as soon as I am in custody.  I have always attempted to shoot down helicopters after the pilots fail to heed my shots and in a lot of times took the helicopter down.  So is a pilot failing to obey the warning shots initiation to open fire?  Keep in mind no sirens were used, but they were moving lower and right to me and were going to land.  

Here is the only thing I can find on these rules:

"Warning shots are allowed against helicopters that are attempting to land or hover near your position.

If the helicopter does not leave the area after multiple warning shots, you may attempt to disable the helicopter."

The definition of "attempt to disable" needs to be clarified.  We all know if you don't heed warning shots, you are getting shot at.....

>>>>>>>>I then shoot some warning shots into the air, the helicopter is continuing to fly lower and directly at me.  I open fire, spraying the helicopter, and killing an occupant<<<<<<<

warning shots fired. they failed to fly away... if it was me in a heli then I would've flown away. I myself would like a direct answer. #1 ok give some time to react. but he clearly stats he gave time and the cops did not feel the need to fly away. also did u get banned for killing the pilot? @Wildcard

[Kip Killigan]

Nah the admin just said that I commited a RDM and that I need to look at the rules.  He then said, I better hope no one reports me lol.

[Kip Killigan]

Even when I tried explaining he said I was wrong, so who knows.

[motokokoto]

This rule is iffy. If a chopper thats likely loaded with enemies and guns starts to fly toward me, I would let them know I am there. If the chopper did not comply; its the guy on the grounds fault because no one in the chopper can hear bullets whizing and windows being broken? So from information and comments gathered from this post, if a chopper does not comply with warning shots and the groundee has given fair warning (the 5 second rule) and because of this lack of response the chopper gets destroyed or people die. How is that the groundees fault?

@Gnashes in most cases I dont think anyone shoots at a chopper randomly, most people who are flying around looking to cause trouble for individuals who did not want to be surrounded by occupants hovering around in a helicopter.. This especially applies to Rebelian, Criminals, and the APD who use RDM as an excuse to get people in trouble or for personal gain. If chopper doesnt respond why do I become responsible if my 9mm or .45 harms someone who was potentially trying to hold me up or take me to jail? Shouldnt this ariel space become a Deathmatch zone once a chopper knows that there is danger and regardlessly proceeds to land? Dont you think these choppers should understand that there is danger in a area and decide to Attack the given area with more of a tactical insertion?

[bigjohn561]

@Wildcard well I think if he really felt it was rdm he would've banned u. Also if someone reports/posts it will show that u fire warning shots. unless they edit the sound on that part.

why don't u post before they do? show us the admin making that statement. show us the video of u firing the warning shots plz. if anything u can prevent someone else getting banned for defending themselves. admins can make mistakes they are people 2 lol.. If anything u can help the admins.

[Kip Killigan]

I think it was just a case where the guy was upset I shot out an occupant.  I would of been insta-banned had I really RDM'd someone, at least I would think (or he thought he was giving me a break).  As far as a video goes, I haven't been banned so no reason to upload atm.  Since the only definitive answer we got from an admin was "determined by a case by case basis"  the way I am going to treat this is how I have done so in the past:  Shoot warning shots and if they immediately start trying to land I am going to shoot them....If they fly away, then I let them be, but the minute they come in again and try to land no more warning shots.

[Gatorade]

5 hours ago, Goldberg Attorney at Law said:

The bar is already pretty low for required RP and has been getting lower over time.  How about we try and pick it up a bit instead of asking how low you can go.

If you are going to do limbo, then expect the bar to be low.

[Murmurs]

On 2/24/2016 at 3:16 PM, Wildcard said:

About 5 seconds.  I fired 3 shots on semi into the air, immediately they started moving but instead of leaving they got lower and came right toward me....it was obvious they were going to land.  I then shot at the cockpit killing an occupant.

How do you know they actually knew where the shots originated and weren't just trying to evac the area, but happened to be your direction?  This scenario is no better than texting a Hatchback sport going 200kph+ to pull over or die and shooting them 5sec later because they haven't stopped yet.

You made a snap decision that they were going to try to apprehend you and instead of disabling the heli, you killed someone. That's the risk you run when you skirt the lines of rdm/vdm. Take the ban and learn from it

[The Boss]

10 minutes ago, Murmurs said:

How do you know they actually knew where the shots originated and weren't just trying to evac the area, but happened to be your direction?  This scenario is no better than texting a Hatchback sport going 200kph+ to pull over or die and shooting them 5sec later because they haven't stopped yet.

You made a snap decision that they were going to try to apprehend you and instead of disabling the heli, you killed someone. That's the risk you run when you skirt the lines of rdm/vdm. Take the ban and learn from it

I don't know about you, but when was the last time you saw a m900 full of cops at pangia? 

Only thing that comes to mind is warrant squad LOL. Regardless of why there were there, they had warning shots and time to comply, they didn't so.. bang?

EDIT

Who cares where they came from, shots were fired, shouldve left if they didn't want to get shot.

And as others have stated before, disabling in most cases will still kill the occupants. 

Edited February 25, 2016 by The Boss

[Professor Pericles]

2 minutes ago, Murmurs said:

How do you know they actually knew where the shots originated and weren't just trying to evac the area, but happened to be your direction?  This scenario is no better than texting a Hatchback sport going 200kph+ to pull over or die and shooting them 5sec later because they haven't stopped yet.

You made a snap decision that they were going to try to apprehend you and instead of disabling the heli, you killed someone. That's the risk you run when you skirt the lines of rdm/vdm. Take the ban and learn from it

I respectfully, fully, 100%, disagree with you. We aren't talking about a flying boat that is unable to stop it's decent, we're talking about a little-bird, a helicopter known and loved for its FAST collective changes mid flight. Hatchback Sport's driving and A helo landing; They are Apples and Oranges

 

If warning was given, and then they continued to land; they may as well have hit the sirens. Full on initiation. 5 seconds, and then they die. Rotor, pilot getting shot - I'd argue it doesn't matter. It's been stated Over and Over, warning shots ARE the start of initiation (systematically speaking).

 

My tip - Make sure they Know the Shots are a warning, and a start of Role Play (Space them out, don't for the love of God hit the heli).. Hell, yell in direct at the same time! They may get the point.

 

[TiLLeR]

23 minutes ago, Professor Pericles said:

I respectfully, fully, 100%, disagree with you. We aren't talking about a flying boat that is unable to stop it's decent, we're talking about a little-bird, a helicopter known and loved for its FAST collective changes mid flight. Hatchback Sport's driving and A helo landing; They are Apples and Oranges

 

If warning was given, and then they continued to land; they may as well have hit the sirens. Full on initiation. 5 seconds, and then they die. Rotor, pilot getting shot - I'd argue it doesn't matter. It's been stated Over and Over, warning shots ARE the start of initiation (systematically speaking).

 

My tip - Make sure they Know the Shots are a warning, and a start of Role Play (Space them out, don't for the love of God hit the heli).. Hell, yell in direct at the same time! They may get the point.

 

I'm sorry but i find this crazy.  So what you are saying is no pilot should go near Kavala b/c shots ring out there every minute and that's initiation right?  So 5 seconds later anyone can open up on a little bird b/c why not.  Sorry but this is a slippery slope.  I agree with Goldberg... let's stop trying to see how far we can lower the bar as the current rules are already very loose.  It takes hardly any time to send a text or make a phone call...I'd try that long before I just start shooting at a heli.

Edited February 25, 2016 by TiLLeR

[Professor Pericles]

3 hours ago, TiLLeR said:

I'm sorry but i find this crazy.  So what you are saying is no pilot should go near Kavala b/c shots ring out there every minute and that's initiation right?  So 5 seconds later anyone can open up on a little bird b/c why not.  Sorry but this is a slippery slope.  I agree with Goldberg... let's stop trying to see how far we can lower the bar as the current rules are already very loose.  It takes hardly any time to send a text or make a phone call...I'd try that long before I just start shooting at a heli.

No, if you take this course of action to any heli fly-by, that would certainly lead to RDM senerios. My response to to the systematic allowances for the situation the OP experienced.

I agree fully with gnashes that because of numorous variables these have to be looked at case by case. In the kavala case you outlined, a comp or ban would be appropriate. In the scenario where one is be pursued by a heli with hostile-intent (landing regardless of warnings NOT to land) then a immediate allowance is made to protect oneself after giving the proper warnings 

[Murmurs]

15 hours ago, The Boss said:

I don't know about you, but when was the last time you saw a m900 full of cops at pangia? 

Only thing that comes to mind is warrant squad LOL. Regardless of why there were there, they had warning shots and time to comply, they didn't so.. bang?

EDIT

Who cares where they came from, shots were fired, shouldve left if they didn't want to get shot.

And as others have stated before, disabling in most cases will still kill the occupants. 

If you disable a heli, it does not automatically = death to all occupants. It falls on the skill of the pilot to safely land it.  Now, if you just open up on a Heli from the get go and disable the engine and they crash into death, that is rdm. My point was that sometimes you can't tell the shots were at you or where they came from. So if they began moving (unfortunately in the direction of the unknown shooter location) and said shooter just opens up on them because of their current vector. The shooter better be damned sure that heli was after him instead of just in the process of vacating the area. 5sec isn't long to get away

[Murmurs]

16 hours ago, Professor Pericles said:

I respectfully, fully, 100%, disagree with you. We aren't talking about a flying boat that is unable to stop it's decent, we're talking about a little-bird, a helicopter known and loved for its FAST collective changes mid flight. Hatchback Sport's driving and A helo landing; They are Apples and Oranges

 

If warning was given, and then they continued to land; they may as well have hit the sirens. Full on initiation. 5 seconds, and then they die. Rotor, pilot getting shot - I'd argue it doesn't matter. It's been stated Over and Over, warning shots ARE the start of initiation (systematically speaking).

 

My tip - Make sure they Know the Shots are a warning, and a start of Role Play (Space them out, don't for the love of God hit the heli).. Hell, yell in direct at the same time! They may get the point.

 

From a full hover in your heli, I will give you warning shots from 100 meters away and you have 5sec to fly over my location and leave shoot able airspace. I bet you can't is my point.

[HotWings]

If your chopper takes shots leave or prepare to fight. Ez

[Buttercup]

If you waited 5 seconds, it's not RDM. If you get banned appeal the ban. Simple put it says in the rules warning shots and then disabling the heli is fine. 

Last time I checked Paratus put the rules in game, and I don't think any admin who has posted in this thread trumps his ruling. 

A admin who says that your lucky no one is going to report you is dumb, because admins can ban you by seeing breaking a rule, they don't need evidence. Last time I checked. So obviously you were within your rights to do so. 

[HotWings]

Just now, Buttercup said:

If you waited 5 seconds, it's not RDM. If you get banned appeal the ban. Simple put it says in the rules warning shots and then disabling the heli is fine. 

 

Disabling the heli = killing passengers?

[Buttercup]

Just now, HotWings said:

Disabling the heli = killing passengers?

Shooting the pilot out is a great way to disable a helicopter.

[HotWings]

Just now, Buttercup said:

Shooting the pilot out is a great way to disable a helicopter.

pilot = passengers?  

[Buttercup]

Just now, HotWings said:

pilot = passengers?  

After the warning shots, the pilot should know that more bullets will be coming, and should fly away or take the risk of him or his crew dying. 

 

 

[Kip Killigan]

I didnt wait 5 seconds......after the warning shots.  I mean here they are hovering in the middle of a street, the spot me standing in the street and begin flying towards me, I shoot warning shots, about 3 seconds later still flying toward me and maybe 15 meters off the ground, obviously trying to land to unload all 6 cops....so I spray the cockpit.  5 seconds shouldn't even matter.  The second they lower that helicopter and fly in my direction it should be justified to follow up with kill shots.  I could understand if I fired warning shots and they didn't move right away, then give them 5 seconds to decide.

[Buttercup]

Just now, Wildcard said:

I didnt wait 5 seconds......after the warning shots.  I mean here they are hovering in the middle of a street, the spot me standing in the street and begin flying towards me, I shoot warning shots, about 3 seconds later still flying toward me and maybe 15 meters off the ground, obviously trying to land to unload all 6 cops....so I spray the cockpit.  5 seconds shouldn't even matter.  The second they lower that helicopter and fly in my direction it should be justified to follow up with kill shots.  I could understand if I fired warning shots and they didn't move right away, then give them 5 seconds to decide.

Your fine, if there was indeed an admin there and they thought it to be RDM you would be banned. 

[Kip Killigan]

17 hours ago, Murmurs said:

How do you know they actually knew where the shots originated and weren't just trying to evac the area, but happened to be your direction?

No helicopter that receives warning shots that doesn't want to fight is going to land directly in front of the guy shooting.  I think my common sense can dictate that a helicopter of 6 cops in panagia means business when I am the only one there since I own the turf.