Changing the Gameplay: 3rd Person Crosshair

[rngr]

This is a suggestion that I am making brought about by this thread by Motown:

Obviously the response was relatively negative.  Whether you want to argue that it was due to people being overly reliant on 3rd person, cartels not being the place for 1st person or it messing with gameplay balance, that is whatever.

However, it was pointed out rather heavily that the combat meta is heavily focused on "peek-shooting" and "quick-peeking".  This is more-so for Cop vs Civ gameplay given the defensive locations, but still applies to cartels (albeit less so since the wonderful removal of East Arms).  Honestly, I think, and I believe that many/most players might agree, that this style of peek shooting engagements at the prison/bank is relatively boring.  Its just a combination of hard aims and people blaming each other for shooting through walls.  Whether they are shooting through the deerstands/towers or not, the style of combat is boring and one-sided.

So to potentially change that meta and alter the gameplay balance to an extent, I think it would be very interesting to remove the cross-hair from the 3rd person camera.  I have fought with it removed on other life servers and on KOTH/Battle Royale, and I do think that it makes things more of a challenge and arguably more interesting.  I think that it could bring some balance about to some of the engagements on Asylum and in general improve the overall combat.  I personally would like to see people fighting down sights in a more realistic manner more often, but I don't want to deal with the confines of first person only which can honestly feel insanely limiting given how small the FoV is on computer monitors in general due to limited screen real-estate.

So what do you guys think?  Would the removal of the cross hair in 3rd person be a change worth considering or trying temporarily at least?

[The Monopoly Man]

+111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111

[JonSnow]

You got a +1 from me. Remove that bad boy.

[Slittcer]

+1000000000000000000000000000000

Fuck the quick peak pussys

[M4ST3R]

+1 From me

[Ozadu]

Remove the crosshair from 1st person too.

+1

Edited February 22, 2016 by Ozadu

[The Monopoly Man]

B.B.B.B.B.B.B.ut,.......... how will we ever make our tower montages? 

[kryptonthegamer]

Definitely not.

Just now, The Monopoly Man said:

B.B.B.B.B.B.B.ut,.......... how will we ever make our tower montages? 

And I use adaptive crisshair so I would still be good.

[Bikstok]

It wouldn't make a difference for peak shooting. Most monitors have an option to enable a crosshair in the center of the screen (a piece of tape if you're broke..). Using that is like aiming with adaptive crosshair disabled, meaning that you can still do very quick accurate peak shots.

It would however change CQC quite a lot. Whenever I play wasteland I find myself using the small scopes more in close quarters, because there is no 3rd person crosshair.

[Slittcer]

Just now, The Monopoly Man said:

B.B.B.B.B.B.B.ut,.......... how will we ever make our tower montages? 

[rngr]

Before this becomes a flame war over cops vs rebels, lets make sure everyone understands that the crosshair effects the two groups differently.

Yes, I would argue it offers more of a benefit to rebels in cop vs civ gameplay due to the fact that the civilians are the once maintaining the defensive position in 90% of engagements.  That being said, lets not invalidate either groups thoughts on the matter.  Unlike the last thread which honestly applied to rebels and not cops since it was cartel zones, I want this one to be solely a productive discussion.

Yes, peek shooting would still exist, but I think this could make for a more intersting combat situation that brings about more down scope gameplay which has its own risks vs rewards as opposed to being able to 3rd person everything under 100m.

[Vanilla]

+1 fights would be more interesting

Edited February 22, 2016 by Vanilla

[Diseased]

Can we get people to fight and shit and incentive before we start changing gameplay.

[Gatorade]

+1 , Sounds cool

[rngr]

5 minutes ago, Diseased said:

Can we get people to fight and shit and incentive before we start changing gameplay.

Changing shit is how you get people to play.  People love "new". 

New is something to come check out, if you like it, you stay and enjoy that new mechanic, if you come back and still don't like it, then no loss.  If the current players stop because of it or really hate it, then maybe you revert the change.

[TYL3R]

3 minutes ago, Ranger said:

Changing shit is how you get people to play.  People love "new". 

New is something to come check out, if you like it, you stay and enjoy that new mechanic, if you come back and still don't like it, then no loss.  If the current players stop because of it or really hate it, then maybe you revert the change.

revert pre 6.0

 

[LaGrange]

Back when I played console games, people often taped crosshairs to their TV. I can definitely see that happening on Asylum if we were to take out the 3rd person crosshair due to the competitive nature of our server.

[Rami]

If you were good you could kill the quick peakers  

[Scott]

3 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

Back when I played console games, people often taped crosshairs to their TV. I can definitely see that happening on Asylum if we were to take out the 3rd person crosshair due to the competitive nature of our server.

LOL people were playing a koth server with no crosshair yesterday and complaining. Just pull out the 'ol whiteboard marker and draw yourself a crosshair, dammit!

[LaGrange]

4 minutes ago, Scott said:

LOL people were playing a koth server with no crosshair yesterday and complaining. Just pull out the 'ol whiteboard marker and draw yourself a crosshair, dammit!

lol.

Inevitably, this would create another thing for certain players to take advantage of. You would have some people using external crosshairs, while everyone else is stuck without one. Not worth the trouble, IMO. 

Also, proving whether or not someone is using an external crosshair would literally be impossible, so it would be easy to get away with.

[kryptonthegamer]

14 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

Back when I played console games, people often taped crosshairs to their TV. I can definitely see that happening on Asylum if we were to take out the 3rd person crosshair due to the competitive nature of our server.

Or use mumble crisshair and adaptive crisshair(until removed from 3rd person if it is)....meaning you literally get both lol.

Edited February 22, 2016 by 《New》 Krypton 《wəN》

[Dennis]

-1, I come from a server where we had no crosshair and i didn't like it at all. It is also fun with crosshair

[Sheriff Rick Grimes]

When I got back into Asylum after playing Siege religiously, the first thing that really was a disappointment is the peaking game with the third person cross hair.  Whether it be cop versus civ or civ versus civ, the style of play is just boring and slightly luck based.  I think gameplay would be more challenging and realistic.  I'm for the removal, no doubt.

[Reformed epTic]

career cop here, keep crosshair as it is. 

people will just use autohotkey scripts to make a crosshair appear on their screen, and there ain't a damn thing the admins can do to detect it. 

[Vanilla Coke]

-1, I tried playing without a crosshair, it wasn't pretty. Tape ftw.

[Pentax]

Any good player who knows how to quick peek, don't really need to use the crosshair anyway. So I don't really see how that would change much. It would screw up people who use dynamic crosshair and people who are new to quick peeking.

[Olivia]

18 hours ago, Pentax said:

Any good player who knows how to quick peek, don't really need to use the crosshair anyway. So I don't really see how that would change much. It would screw up people who use dynamic crosshair and people who are new to quick peeking.

Do you think that removing the cross hair would just widen the skill gap between the veteran gang members and the combat inexperienced?  That gap is already pretty huge when it comes to civ vs cop

[Pentax]

58 minutes ago, Olivia said:

Do you think that removing the cross hair would just widen the skill gap between the veteran gang members and the combat inexperienced?  That gap is already pretty huge when it comes to civ vs cop

Yup I think it would.

[Scott]

Much like people have said, anyone who has played the game a lot knows where your crosshair would be without one. I play just the same without one because I know exactly where it goes on my screen, from playing the game enough.

[Sheriff Rick Grimes]

2 minutes ago, Scott said:

Much like people have said, anyone who has played the game a lot knows where your crosshair would be without one. I play just the same without one because I know exactly where it goes on my screen, from playing the game enough.

 

That's true.  But you still wouldn't be getting all the information that you normally would.  To my knowledge, you wouldn't be able to tell whether your shots would be in a tight grouping or not, making the third person peaking game a little bit harder and might just be easier to then aim down your sights.

[Reformed epTic]

6 minutes ago, Sheriff Rick Grimes said:

 

That's true.  But you still wouldn't be getting all the information that you normally would.  To my knowledge, you wouldn't be able to tell whether your shots would be in a tight grouping or not, making the third person peaking game a little bit harder and might just be easier to then aim down your sights.

make png of arma 3 crosshair, download external crosshair script, win. 

[Shepurd]

Anything that increases the skill gap I think is a good idea most of the time. I like this idea. +1

[The Weeb]

22 hours ago, Ranger said:

This is a suggestion that I am making brought about by this thread by Motown:

Obviously the response was relatively negative.  Whether you want to argue that it was due to people being overly reliant on 3rd person, cartels not being the place for 1st person or it messing with gameplay balance, that is whatever.

However, it was pointed out rather heavily that the combat meta is heavily focused on "peek-shooting" and "quick-peeking".  This is more-so for Cop vs Civ gameplay given the defensive locations, but still applies to cartels (albeit less so since the wonderful removal of East Arms).  Honestly, I think, and I believe that many/most players might agree, that this style of peek shooting engagements at the prison/bank is relatively boring.  Its just a combination of hard aims and people blaming each other for shooting through walls.  Whether they are shooting through the deerstands/towers or not, the style of combat is boring and one-sided.

So to potentially change that meta and alter the gameplay balance to an extent, I think it would be very interesting to remove the cross-hair from the 3rd person camera.  I have fought with it removed on other life servers and on KOTH/Battle Royale, and I do think that it makes things more of a challenge and arguably more interesting.  I think that it could bring some balance about to some of the engagements on Asylum and in general improve the overall combat.  I personally would like to see people fighting down sights in a more realistic manner more often, but I don't want to deal with the confines of first person only which can honestly feel insanely limiting given how small the FoV is on computer monitors in general due to limited screen real-estate.

So what do you guys think?  Would the removal of the cross hair in 3rd person be a change worth considering or trying temporarily at least?

+1 To giving it a try. It may kill some people by the fact that being in 1st person can drop some frames, idk how accurate that is for other people but i have noticed it a bit.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Rugged

[Haych]

Ok, so here is my input. Keep in mind i have 3000 hours experience playing on a Altis Life server that had no crosshairs, so I have a lot of game time without the use of crosshairs.

Firstly, everything Ranger said is 100% true. In fights we usually avoided towers and deerstands because peaking times where just way to slow and you'd usually get tapped when going for the peak. It made attacking more easier which I see appealing to the admins a lot as it can often be hard, especially for the Police.
 

There was a handful of competitive players, me included used monitor crosshairs or tape, however this was by far no crosshair replacement, it was more annoying to have when scoped in then spraying in 3rd person, the negatives outwayed the positives as its a permanent marker on your screen, not something that disappears when you scope in.
It was also never 100% accurate when you wanted to go for those quick peeks, you still had to re-adjust your peak making you still exposed for a longer period of time. 

It will bring to light hopefully some new good players. If you have to rely on crosshairs to be good, well then adjust, and if you can't, you're not the good player you make yourself out to be, every good player can adjust and adapt.

Best case scenario it gets trialled for a week across all 5 servers, and a community voting is held at the end of it. The Admins shouldn't be held back on doing things like this just because one kid says he'll leave the community. Don't be scared on trialling changes, at the end of the day, its a trial, you can always revert if the community is not happy.

[g1ant]

On 22.2.2016 at 10:57 PM, LaGrange said:

Back when I played console games, people often taped crosshairs to their TV. I can definitely see that happening on Asylum if we were to take out the 3rd person crosshair due to the competitive nature of our server.

I did that on MW2 for quickscoping, hahaha

[kryptonthegamer]

I used adaptive crosshair For the past 2 weeks, and the only person I couldn't kill was ranga. You peak and adjust if you have adaptive on, you just gotta be quick.

Edited February 24, 2016 by 《New》 Krypton 《wəN》

[Big Fred]

+1... this is an RP Server afterall.

Olivia made a valid point though when it comes to gaps in skill levels. That should be taken into consideration before changing anything.

[Ghost0fDawn]

I have honestly been finding other servers to play for combat lately because I just get bored of the never ending camp and peek battle games. Just sitting behind a Hesko, in a deerstand, or on an ATM roof and waiting for the other guy to peak for 10 minutes is insanely BORING. Flatout. it also causes different areas to have the same exact combat. You would expect the fed to be more directly engaging and CQC then say a prison, but it's not. It's just peak shooting at a few meters closer.

After 2100 hundred hours of Arma and tons of 1st person vs 3rd person, this is not Gears of War. Arma is BUILT around 1st person. it's a tactical milsim in which skill and teamwork come out on top. until you throw 3rd person into the mix. Then it turns into camp-warfare. In 1st person, if I check a street, see that it is clear, cross, and get shot from that spot, I can assume I made a mistake or just had bad luck. If the same thing happened in 3rd person, it would be because there was no possible way I could check if were clear, since the opposer could be crouched under cover camping me until I was vulnerable. That drives me up the damn wall.

 

1st person doesn't have a "limited FoV" in comparison to 3rd. It's just not an overwatch of your character. You can't look over the crest of cover without taking a risk. Which should be true. Nobody should be rewarded with a view of the battlefield with no risk. I prefer 1st person Hardcore servers with no crosshairs because it is much more fluid and engaging way to play. It demands risk for reward where a split second mistake can mean you lose. Personally I don't understand how anyone prefers 3rd person combat. It completely breaks the fundamentals of Arma combat.

Sure, 3rd person can be much easier for social situations, talking with civs in town, driving vehicles many people find easier, especially helicopters. However, the thing is, if you can't fly in first person, it's because you learned to do it in third.

You players of Asylum have played with the crutch of 3rd Person for so long the idea of not having it is a terror to you. You cower to the thought of having to put yourself into harms way for reward. And yet you claim and boast about how "good" you are. Abuse the 911 system to tell us how rekt we got. You cops shit over your own comms because you lost. Pistolbanging RDMers get away with it for so long because they can remain in the serenity of their cover until no one is watching to shoot them again. All of these problems would cease with First person only. Having that on asylum would make me more than happy.

[SheriffJohnBeard]

If it becomes a peeking game, then disengage. cops don't need to win every engagement. 

the main purpose of being a cop is to role-play. everyone that is in a major gang and white-listed should be more accountable on how they play as cop. we know the frustrations too well of police officers coming in waves, robocopping, and lack of RP. do your part to give yourself a 2 life rule, to take enough time with the criminal,  to create scenarios and ask engaging questions when a person is explaining his charges. we can be the change that asylum needs.

hmmm wrong thread.

i think if you take off the cross hairs in 3rd person, it'll be worse for the casual player because the experienced player doesn't need cross hairs.

[Ghost0fDawn]

20 hours ago, SheriffJohnBeard said:

If it becomes a peeking game, then disengage. cops don't need to win every engagement. 

the main purpose of being a cop is to role-play. everyone that is in a major gang and white-listed should be more accountable on how they play as cop. we know the frustrations too well of police officers coming in waves, robocopping, and lack of RP. do your part to give yourself a 2 life rule, to take enough time with the criminal,  to create scenarios and ask engaging questions when a person is explaining his charges. we can be the change that asylum needs.

hmmm wrong thread.

i think if you take off the cross hairs in 3rd person, it'll be worse for the casual player because the experienced player doesn't need cross hairs.

That's missing the point entirely. Too often do I see on Asylum "just leave" or "go do something else." If half of the game mechanics revolve around there being an issue or just downright boring then it is failing to meet the expectation it should uphold - to be entertaining or fun. Continuing to state "just do something else" is a complete lack of action and ignoring the problem. How long does one keep saying it until it stops being "go somewhere else in Asylum" and becomes "go somewhere else than Asylum."

 

The unyielding ignorance of issues that plague Asylum is why it has gone downhill. The servers were jam-packed a year ago, but now they can't possibly maintain the same reputation as before and not because of Paratus or admins or any of that; partially because the community does not push for the changes that are needed.